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FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
Hello Friends,
Perhaps you have seen in other threads that I am very unhappy with the LGBT "community" and the whole "Rainbow" thing.
Let me clarify -
I am not in opposition to Gay, Lesbian or Transgendered individuals.
Repeat :
I am not in opposition to Gay, Lesbian or Transgendered individuals.
What I am advocating is for the Bisexual community to get out of the trappings of the so called LGBT community and its "rainbow" and start speaking for ourselves. The organized LGBT community as an advocacy group does not represent the Bisexual community - even though we have many shared interests. Instead, on an organizational level, the LGBT community is headed by people who are not supportive of Bisexuals and are openly critical of, and insulting to, us.
There is clear need to step out from under the rainbow and speak for ourselves - advocate for our own acceptance, respect, and issues.
This is not a call to oppose the LGBT Community. This is not a call to oppose or belittle Gay, Lesbian, and Transgendered individuals.
This is simply the call to speak on our own behalf as no one is going to do it for us.
Repeat :
This is not a call to oppose the LGBT Community. This is not a call to oppose or belittle Gay, Lesbian, and Transgendered individuals.
I hope that clarifies my stance. I hope others that feel the same will stand up with the rest of us.
Thanks for listening.
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
The only thing it clarify's for me is that you seem to like repeating yourself.....sort of like a Foghorn Leghorn.....I Say.....Foghorn Lrghorn :rainbow:
Cheers Chook :bigrin:
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
I hear you, d, and I agree that we could all stand to start speaking up more on and for our own. It certainly doesn't make sense to stand around waiting for the rainbow to solve our problems...but I don't think anyone is advocating that.
IF we speak up, we stand to gain ground for ourselves, and to make greater headway when the rainbow gains its own ground.
I won't refuse support from any group, be it larger or smaller than ourselves, and whether it is a subset, superset, or completely disjoint from us. But I think that all that's needed to "step out from under the rainbow", as you say, is for us to start making ourselves more visible and more vocal. I mean, if all the posts I've read here about how everyone is really bi have an ounce of validity, then there are more of us than there are of anyone else...so if half of us would start speaking up, we should be able to accomplish something. (Of course, I'm one of those who *doesn't* believe that everyone is bi, so I'll leave the organizing of our great masses to someone who does.)
Speaking for ourselves, though, d, doesn't mean we divorce ourselves from the LGBT movement, or refuse association with them...that is silly. But there is no harm in moving a bit on our own, as we feel we can.
For starters, we could use some good high-profile bisexuals to start speaking out when bisexuals are criticized or maligned. Any volunteers?
(*crick crick*)
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
But haven't you noticed by now that the vast majority of people on this site don't care enough to politicize their lives?
If I live to be 1000, I'll never be part of any bi advocacy group. Who has that much time to waste nowadays?
The people who like vanilla ice cream are after me to advocate on their behalf because they feel that the chocolate ice cream people are not representing them and are belittling their flavour. I don't have interest in that either.
This is one of that "can't see the forest for the trees" type of situations. You're so caught up and focused on your sexuality that you're missing the whole world out there that doesn't give a shit.
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
Until recently there was a web site called The Dead Letter Department. This site was based on the premise of being a clearinghouse of letters the postal service could not deliver. or more aptly letters people wrote to loved ones upon learning of impending death. Rather due to suffering depression or an uncanny morbidity, I saved an amalgamation of some of these. Often I revisit this Dead Letter for help in keeping perspective. Maybe the original poster and others can find something in it as well. If not, that's alright as well.
The Dead Letter
Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion.
Find your inner strengths and go with them (no matter how others will see them.)
Always find the positive and beauty in any thing or situation.
No matter what you have done in your life so far - it is NOT too late to begin again.
And please - do ONE THING everyday that makes YOU happy.
Learn how to live the best way you can for you and for the people you love.
Don't let money or other people rule your life.
Develop close and personal relationships, tell people you love them.
Find your calling.
Find your happiness and joy and sorrow and emotion.
Find your own life, and live it.
Life goes quickly so be brave.
It's never too early to start realizing your dreams and ambitions.
Don't forget to have loads of fun too.
Don't be scared of trying and failing. Its far sadder to be too afraid.
Be kind to your lovers. Tell the truth.
Appreciate your friends and remember when they let you down to give them a few chances.
Families aren't perfect. Try to get on with your parents. They won't always be around.
Try not to regret.
Talk about it, whatever it is - share your secrets with a total stranger or a close friend. But get them out in the open, somehow, someway. They will kill you if you don't, or at least rot you from the inside out. And if you think you are the first person to have a secret like yours - you haven't counted the population lately. And no one cares - because we all have our secrets. Anyone who cares too much about mine obviously is afraid of dealing with theirs, and do you want to be that person?
There are no RIGHT answers; only choices. . .
Enjoy each to its fullest!
Don't be a coward. If you see an opportunity, go for it. If you want to have an experience, have it. Don't wait, don't worry and certainly don't waste time bitching and moaning about how you waited and worried. The universe doesn't give out second chances. There's no sense bitching about it, because that's just the way it is.
And you people better shut up and stop fighting over the petty shit. You keep that up, and all the opportunities in the world will slip right through your fingers.
Live your life, trust your feelings, be who you are and fuck other people's opinions.
And fuck other people, too. Celibacy is a curse.
Life will indeed kick your ass if you let it. So don't. It really is as simple as that.
- Life is what we make of it. Recognize that.
But also recognize that everything you say and do affects someone in some way, and while you have your rights, recognize that everyone else has the right to have you NOT interfere with their life. Also recognize that people will be too polite to tell you that you're screwing with their life in some way... so you need to watch yourself.
- Don't be too polite to tell someone else that they're screwing with your life.
- Watch yourself.
- Make sure you're always free. This is one of your rights. No one, and I mean no one, can take your power away unless you let them or unless you break the rules that society has laid down. Those rules are there for good reason, and not to protect you from yourself or to make you do what "the man" wants you to do. This includes the advice of your parents. They may seem stupid now, but when you're a stain underneath that 18-wheeler, "look both ways" would've been a good idea. And maybe some clean underwear, too.
- Don't screw your body up too bad when you're young. You'll need it later. You can have just as much fun without chemicals to relax you... you just need to relax yourself.
- Learn how to love. It's a skill that I never learned, either because I wasn't ready for the lesson or I didn't find a good enough teacher.
- Learn how not to hate. This is a lesson I did learn, and I'm forever grateful for it. Diversity and differences between people and places are good, and will not only make you grow as a person, which you can't necessarily see, but it will make you feel better about yourself.
- This goes out to the religious people in the audience: Do not rely on blind faith. It's a battering ram to get you through life. Instead, learn to fence - Go out and explore your personal faith on your own. Explore your beliefs. Explore your urges. Give in to some of these urges, because they're not wrong - they're what your body and mind wants and/or needs, and no one (and I mean no one) should tell you otherwise. What would you do tomorrow if you woke up and found that there is no god? What if you woke up tomorrow and found that we are not made in the reflection of God, but instead, God is some sort of space alien? Would you fear and hate, would you worship, or disregard? Decide for yourself. Explore yourself. Just remember, make sure all of the urges that you try do not change or interfere with someone else's rights.
Know yourself, set rules by yourself for your self. Don't tread on other people. Don't let them tread on you. Figure out what you want to know and what you want to believe. Live your life, because you don't know what's coming after it.
Part I - Some Thoughts on Thinking
a. Intuition is usually right.
Part II - Some Thoughts About Emotions
a. True love is just that- nothing but the truth.
b. True love isn't if either of you are lying.
c. Love at first sight can be difficult for the vision-impaired.
Part III - Some Thoughts About Feelings
a. If it feels good, make sure it feels *right* too.
b. If it doesn't feel right, run like crazy.
"No matter what they tell you, who you are and what you do does matter. So go out and make a difference."
The object of life is to love and be loved.
We aren't important. No one is really. No you, I wasn't, the president of the United States isn't, not one person on this little speck of a planet matters. Now that we're clear I'll confuse you. While you don't matter at all buy just existing you fundamentally change the universe. Cause and effect spiraling into infinity. Just by existing you change things. So don't give up hope just yet.
On to religion. About God. I don't know, I haven't met it. There you go.
Being dead gives an interesting bit of perspective. I realize now how much of the things people care about aren't really important. Money doesn't mean anything to dead people. And it shouldn't mean anything to you either. Your car, house, dog, clothes, etc. aren't important. What is important is how you live. What matters are your friends and family. How you treat people, what you do, that is what means something.
Give the homeless guy a few dollars, who cares what he spends it on. Since when is it your place to judge? Make friends with someone from that group you were raised to dislike. Volunteer for an organization that actually helps people, like an AIDS program, or a homeless shelter. Just do something.
Don't accept life for what it is. Because it isn't what you think. Make yourself better. Make your world better for everyone.
You might not matter in the greater scheme of things, but you can make your immediate surroundings a better place. You can affect that much.
Step away from this message and live your life with as much joie de vivre as possible.
I emphasized a few portions which in ways feel as though speak to me.
Quote:
Talk about it, whatever it is - share your secrets with a total stranger or a close friend. But get them out in the open, somehow, someway. They will kill you if you don't, or at least rot you from the inside out. And if you think you are the first person to have a secret like yours - you haven't counted the population lately. And no one cares - because we all have our secrets. Anyone who cares too much about mine obviously is afraid of dealing with theirs, and do you want to be that person?
I've talked about my secrets to those deemed appropriate. The poison won't eat me up. In fact I've spoken the secrets to complete strangers. And yes, I still have a few secrets.
I have two which probably will not be spoken. One of those deals with some knowledge of a certain type of submarine. The other deals with some not so stuff I may or may not have done to some not so nice people on different occasions. These are the types of secrets a person doesn't talk about anyway.
I can sleep fine with these secrets. Well, not entirely true but I do manage. Nightmares sometimes and a really strong dislike of large crowds of people, dislike of people at an odd angle behind me. It's what I call the 'kill' zone, just out of peripheral sight. Oh, and I pull back shower curtains in bathrooms.
But I can 'get by' for the most part. I have a medicine for when 'the edge' gets too damn sharp. It helps some. Some times I need to fight the medicine to get it to work, and then it knocks me down but good.
At any given, hopefully, this Dead Letter can help. Outies.
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
There are certain things I'll advocate for slipnslide, mostly out of frustration, like being frustrated that a man and a woman can hold hands in public and kiss on Christmas Day or Valentine's Day and nobody says anything but around here let a gay couple try it once on any day of the year and see what happens. I do choose to hold a sign up near the courthouse on Valentine's Day every year asking for people to support gay marriage because I believe discriminating against someone for something as fundamental as who they love is hurtful and wrong.
I grew up with self esteem issues, as a result when I hear about LGBT teen suicide it breaks my heart, so despite being in the closet every once in a while I will submit an editorial to the paper or post on a public discussion forum about that issue.
People have always rallied around symbols and made those symbols their own. Not everybody always agrees with the interpretation. I believe the rainbow flag was for the rainbow coalition, which was not just LGBT but also included race; I think it is supposed to represent "all people" - as in celebrating diversity.
There is certainly nothing wrong with lending your personal voice and story to an issue, I think the only way that prejudice in any category will get gone is when EVERY straight person personally gets to know a lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered person, and EVERY white person personally knows someone of color. Then maybe you might just convince people, "You know what? That person's not so bad".
I think that generally speaking a gain for one minority benefits all. There are times when we must both must work together as a group and individually. This work should be done out of love when possible, not malice, spite, greed or anger. Compassionate love is the greatest gift that humans possess.
As Desmond Tutu says - "You don't have to necessarily be looking to do spectacular things - do what you can, where you can, to the extent that you can. Your act of courage may just be enough to inspire someone else."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILCdwJj37iw
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"the vast majority of people on this site don't care enough to politicize their lives."
We see how and what politics bring. We do care but, our caring isn't caring to be caught up in the quagmire of hell that politics beseeches. Our caring lies in allowing a gentle stream to continually erode a mountain away. Sure, we might have dynamite and C4. These both make one hell of a dent in mountainsides but then you're left with all the debris to clean up. Streams flow to rivers, rivers to seas.
We are all part of this infinite and eternal sea called the cosmos. While I may not hold to a divine being, I can still recognize something out there. It is seen every day when scientists can not define gravity, or electricity, fish in the darkest depths that have no eyes yet still survive. So, no we don't care about politics. It is just another creation of mankind's intellect like Time.
We're really smart too for all that intellect. Brought mother earth to the brink with raping her for resources, try to self genocide ourselves in wars. So many drugs now because we've made our world/s uninhabitable, so full of fear that we need crutches like politics and religion. Addicted to ideas so fully we don't see the onrushing headlights of Nature herself telling us to wake from a dream. "I've already had that one my child, mankind and what's more realized it infinitely better."
So while you may think we don't care, be aware we do. We just don't care in the way you would have us care. Sometimes the two Buddhas turn and walk the same direction, but different paths.
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If the rainbow is a coalition, then which group came to the table to represent and speak for bisexuals? I know of none.
Do you know which group came to the rainbow table to represent us?
I want sexual bisexuals to represent bisexuals.
How are bisexuals needs different from gays?
The San Francisco Human Rights Commission reports that bisexuals have greater medical /stress related needs than any other group under the rainbow coalition. The San Francisco GLBT group provided the least numbers of specific progammes inclduding support and counselling to bisexuals and yet bisexuals are the largest numbers under the rainbow coalition. Bisexuals were expected to fit in to existing programmes designed for monosexual gays.
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tenni
If the rainbow is a coalition, then which group came to the table to represent and speak for bisexuals? I know of none.
Do you know which group came to the rainbow table to represent us?
I want sexual bisexuals to represent bisexuals.
How are bisexuals needs different from gays?
The San Francisco Human Rights Commission reports that bisexuals have greater medical /stress related needs than any other group under the rainbow coalition. The San Francisco GLBT group provided the least numbers of specific progammes inclduding support and counselling to bisexuals and yet bisexuals are the largest numbers under the rainbow coalition. Bisexuals were expected to fit in to existing programmes designed for monosexual gays.
If you can't / won't ask for help then you really have no one to blame but yourself...
In other words it's really passive aggressive to blame everyone else for our invisibility and lack of organization.
I'm all for being self empowered, but that first word is the kicker "self." It isn't Gay Inc.'s fault that we aren't speaking for ourselves. It isn't even the fault of straight people. When it comes right down to it, we need to be more articulate and more outspoken about who we are and what we want.
Some areas are barely able to support a pflag meeting. There aren't any glbt centers and no "gay" bars(which actually turn out to be pansexual "queer" bars) how do you propose bi people "step out from under the rainbow" in that situation?
Oh and here is information on "Celebrate Bisexuality Day"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_Pride_Day
Anyone ever look here? http://www.bisexual.org/home.html
Oh and then there is this: http://bi.org/
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chook
The only thing it clarify's for me is that you seem to like repeating yourself.....sort of like a Foghorn Leghorn.....I Say.....Foghorn Lrghorn :rainbow:
Cheers Chook :bigrin:
lol Chook
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
I feel most of us are here for hot bi sex and a place to express our questions and desires. The more time spent discussing quasi political crap is less time having great sex. Just saying!
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Diva
Thanks for posting the sites. I am aware of one as that is the site that someone (Elian or Fred?) posted as a reference to bi erasure and bi invisibility.
"If you can't / won't ask for help then you really have no one to blame but yourself..."
True. In the case of the San Francisco situation, the systemic set up of the GLBT umbrella failed to provide rather than a bisexual failing to ask for help. In that situation it seems clear that it was not individual bisexuals with passive aggressive thinking. The issue with bi erasure and bi invisiblity seems to melt down to whether people like Diva blame the individuals for not making change as opposed to systems established and paid for to provide services failing to provide those services for the largest segment of the GLBT. Diva prefers to blame the victim it seems. Others wish to blame dj etc. for wanting some separation from the umbrella. Catch 22 thinking imo.
"Some areas are barely able to support a pflag meeting. There aren't any glbt centers and no "gay" bars(which actually turn out to be pansexual "queer" bars) how do you propose bi people "step out from under the rainbow" in that situation?"
In those geographic areas you are correct. No one is being provided services. That seems to be another Catch 22 scenario where you assume that bisexuals are comfortable and have a commonality of purpose with G&L ...let alone T. Bisexuals are hardly acknowledged by the G&L who have more visibility. Yet, in that situation, you really think that gathering will help? Maybe...maybe not. It seem logical that if change is to happen that it will happen in geographic areas where the numbers of interested bisexuals will make the change. Small isolated geographic areas are hardly a talking point unless you wish to stop any momentum.
I think that dbltrbl69 sums up what a lot of people are here for...sex or advice for emerging bi's. Then there was the cookie brigade who want to use the site for amusement. It is probably true that any political action will not come out of this site. It is still worth discussing for those who are interested.
Again, Diva
Thanks for posting those sites.
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Isn't this just a numbers game? There aren't enough bisexual people to support an independent advocacy group. In my life I only know one other person who could identify as bisexual, but she identifies as a lesbian now.
Secondly, this "separate but equal" mentality does play right into the hands of the anti-sexuality-equality crowd. You've now started conquering and dividing the non-heteronormative community.
Finally, what is the end game here? I haven't seen a focused answer to that. If the problem is actually "Instead, on an organizational level, the LGBT community is headed by people who are not supportive of Bisexuals and are openly critical of, and insulting to, us." then you're better off to address that issue within the existing organizations than you are to get in a huff and walk away. You would never achieve the platform that is available now if you choose to differentiate bisexuals.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
dbltrbl69
I feel most of us are here for hot bi sex and a place to express our questions and desires. The more time spent discussing quasi political crap is less time having great sex. Just saying!
Darling, if it was not for discussion, argument and activism, you would most likely be or have been in prison for your 'hot bi sex' since it was those things that enable you to get your bisexual legover quite legally in the first instance. It was discussion, argument and activism which has made this site possible for you to be able to express your questions and desires. It is discussion, argument and activism which has stopped you being branded a pervert, and it is discussion, argument and activism which may just prevent the world from turning on us and forcing us back into the closet.
Think about those things next time that little organ at the end of your cock goes into overdrive.
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tenni
Diva
Thanks for posting the sites. I am aware of one as that is the site that someone (Elian or Fred?) posted as a reference to bi erasure and bi invisibility.
"If you can't / won't ask for help then you really have no one to blame but yourself..."
True. In the case of the San Francisco situation, the systemic set up of the GLBT umbrella failed to provide rather than a bisexual failing to ask for help. In that situation it seems clear that it was not individual bisexuals with passive aggressive thinking. The issue with bi erasure and bi invisiblity seems to melt down to whether people like Diva blame the individuals for not making change as opposed to systems established and paid for to provide services failing to provide those services for the largest segment of the GLBT. Diva prefers to blame the victim it seems. Others wish to blame dj etc. for wanting some separation from the umbrella. Catch 22 thinking imo.
"Some areas are barely able to support a pflag meeting. There aren't any glbt centers and no "gay" bars(which actually turn out to be pansexual "queer" bars) how do you propose bi people "step out from under the rainbow" in that situation?"
In those geographic areas you are correct. No one is being provided services. That seems to be another Catch 22 scenario where you assume that bisexuals are comfortable and have a commonality of purpose with G&L ...let alone T. Bisexuals are hardly acknowledged by the G&L who have more visibility. Yet, in that situation, you really think that gathering will help? Maybe...maybe not. It seem logical that if change is to happen that it will happen in geographic areas where the numbers of interested bisexuals will make the change. Small isolated geographic areas are hardly a talking point unless you wish to stop any momentum.
I think that dbltrbl69 sums up what a lot of people are here for...sex or advice for emerging bi's. Then there was the cookie brigade who want to use the site for amusement. It is probably true that any political action will not come out of this site. It is still worth discussing for those who are interested.
Again, Diva
Thanks for posting those sites.
It isn't "their" responsibility, it's OURS. WE (you, me and everyone else who cares about these issues) must provide services that we know these people to need.
Perhaps the study that was conducted will allow GLBT orgs to go out and re-organize to help everyone. Perhaps we need to start caring for our own.
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Lol well straights gay lesbian and trans gendered people are the last ones I'm thinking about when the brain on the end of my dick goes into overdrive. Generally we aren't accepted by any of them cuz our round peg doesn't go into their square holes. We are what we are... The best of both worlds and any annimosity from those group just means they are against the equality they are seeking. Like someones tagline says. Being bi is putting your hand down someones pants and always being happy with what you find!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
dbltrbl69
Lol well straights gay lesbian and trans gendered people are the last ones I'm thinking about when the brain on the end of my dick goes into overdrive. Generally we aren't accepted by any of them cuz our round peg doesn't go into their square holes. We are what we are... The best of both worlds and any annimosity from those group just means they are against the equality they are seeking. Like someones tagline says. Being bi is putting your hand down someones pants and always being happy with what you find!
I am unsure you have quite got the meaning behind these discussions and neither do I think you fully understand the meaning of what being bisexual is. It is certainly a great deal more than you make it out to be and from your words I envision the type of person who is a major reason why so many gay, lesbian and straight people believe us to be nothing but sewer rats. The very reason we create such suspicion andanimosity among so many gay people in particular.
I have never accepted the argument that we have the best of both worlds. Bisexuality is much more complex than that and means so much more. Nor do I accept the saying about what we find down the pants of others. That is just glib and cheap and stopped being funny the day it was first used, especially since it is quite untrue.
What I read into what you say is one who is interested only in his personal satisfaction and cares nothing about anyone else. The kind of person who can be of any sexuality. The kind who is led blindly by the pea brain at the end of his knob. A very little person indeed.
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This is part of the problem, Katja. We, the bisexual "community" can't really agree on what is important.
To you, it's about something far more and far bigger than what we find in the pants. And that's fantastic. To others, it's all about the sex. And that's ok too.
Look at the profiles on this site. In fact, I challenge you to look at a different city than your own (we become blind to the ones we've seen a thousand times). What do you find? A bunch of MWM who are looking for "discrete" (that's code for cheating on your wife) encounters. People who describe themselves as top, bottom, seeking oral only, etc... THIS is the vast majority of profiles on this site, and I didn't even go into the guys who only post dick shots on their profile photos.
Not very different from gay sites, really. Or gay hangouts. Not that you can go, Katja, but a "men's club" is really just a place for gay men to go hookup for anonymous sex (oh..and enjoy the pool). It's all about the sex, and pretty seedy, even if the facility is nice (of which some are far better than others).
This is part of the problem with the LGBT community in general. A vast majority are so caught up in the hedonism of it all, that they don't understand the very real complexities. And some are so caught up in those complexities that they miss the more hedonistic fun.
And it won't change until we have leadership that is more interested in leading us for our own sake than they are in what the other letters in LGBT do to us.
Pasa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pasadenacpl2
This is part of the problem, Katja. We, the bisexual "community" can't really agree on what is important.
To you, it's about something far more and far bigger than what we find in the pants. And that's fantastic. To others, it's all about the sex. And that's ok too.
Look at the profiles on this site. In fact, I challenge you to look at a different city than your own (we become blind to the ones we've seen a thousand times). What do you find? A bunch of MWM who are looking for "discrete" (that's code for cheating on your wife) encounters. People who describe themselves as top, bottom, seeking oral only, etc... THIS is the vast majority of profiles on this site, and I didn't even go into the guys who only post dick shots on their profile photos.
Not very different from gay sites, really. Or gay hangouts. Not that you can go, Katja, but a "men's club" is really just a place for gay men to go hookup for anonymous sex (oh..and enjoy the pool). It's all about the sex, and pretty seedy, even if the facility is nice (of which some are far better than others).
This is part of the problem with the LGBT community in general. A vast majority are so caught up in the hedonism of it all, that they don't understand the very real complexities. And some are so caught up in those complexities that they miss the more hedonistic fun.
And it won't change until we have leadership that is more interested in leading us for our own sake than they are in what the other letters in LGBT do to us.
Pasa
LOL, and exactly what kind of leader would it take to represent and direct such a disparate group of people with such varying (and predominantly hedonistic) interests?
It's not just that the "leadership" we have is inadequate...it's that it is not possible for anyone to truly represent all views and interests of bisexuals. We aren't really all that interested in being helped.
What would said leader do, exactly? Lead a political movement for social awareness, while advocating that "followers" stay at home and fuck who they want if they're so inclined? That might get everybody on board, but it is not how progress has ever been made in any cause.
No my dears, the problem is not with our leadership. It's with those of us who refuse to be led and don't want to help, but just want the benefit of the effort of others...or worse, live in denial of the fact that they need help and would benefit from social/political change.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Annika L
No my dears, the problem is not with our leadership. It's with those of us who refuse to be led and don't want to help, but just want the benefit of the effort of others...or worse, live in denial of the fact that they need help and would benefit from social/political change.
Can you name a specific change that would benefit you personally?
I've thought about it and I can't.
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Annika L
LOL, and exactly what kind of leader would it take to represent and direct such a disparate group of people with such varying (and predominantly hedonistic) interests?
It's not just that the "leadership" we have is inadequate...it's that it is not possible for anyone to truly represent all views and interests of bisexuals. We aren't really all that interested in being helped.
What would said leader do, exactly? Lead a political movement for social awareness, while advocating that "followers" stay at home and fuck who they want if they're so inclined? That might get everybody on board, but it is not how progress has ever been made in any cause.
No my dears, the problem is not with our leadership. It's with those of us who refuse to be led and don't want to help, but just want the benefit of the effort of others...or worse, live in denial of the fact that they need help and would benefit from social/political change.
You hit on the point, exactly. I wasn't saying that the leadership is inadequate. I was saying that folks like DJones who are espousing seperatism aren't capable of leading this group of people, and that their ideas aren't strong enough to be able to carry the day. Anything built upon a foundation of paranoia and isolationism will not be able to sway the bisexual "community."
Notice how I keep putting "community" in quotes? It's because there is no community (I do the same for the gay "community" too, so don't be offended). We aren't a community. We can't agree on common goals. We can't even agree on whether there is a problem or not.
But, even more importantly is the following. You said "those of us who refuse to be led..." Who are these leaders we are refusing to follow? Who appointed them? What qualifies them? People only follow if they feel the leadership is worth following. This is true in education, business, and society at large. It is true here.
It reminds me of an old Peanuts comic where Lucy laments that she keeps telling everyone what to do, but they just refuse to listen. "If they'd just do what I tell them..." she says.
Pasa
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
What about those of us who are out as bisexual and have been for decades or years and we're accepted by others in the LGBT community and we're fine with being included in with gay men, lesbians, and trans people?
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Originally Posted by
Annika L
LOL, and exactly what kind of leader would it take to represent and direct such a disparate group of people with such varying (and predominantly hedonistic) interests?
No my dears, the problem is not with our leadership. It's with those of us who refuse to be led and don't want to help, but just want the benefit of the effort of others...or worse, live in denial of the fact that they need help and would benefit from social/political change.
First off Hello Annika long time since last we debated but I feel compelled to jump in here.
Once again we must start at the beginning... to be a community we must first define who we are. We can't, as a group, even come up with a general description of a "bisexual" umbrella that we would all agree we fall under. We sure as hell don't agree on our basic needs, i.e. does being bi give me carte blanche to not be monogamous? etc etc etc
Tennie mentioned that Bi's in SF were the most depressed etc. But what the study should have said was of those small number of people who were willing to label themselves as bi in our group we found the highest rate of depression etc. Big difference. How do we know if this data will apply to the seemingly huge number of unreported bisexual people? We can't. In fact with such a diverse group and such a wide range it is impossible to extract any meaningful data from the study.
My opinion has not changed much but I will repeat for the benefit of those who do not know my stance... We are only included in the LGBT for the increase in political power we might represent. I am not in favor of removing us from the political machine but I do not feel welcome in most LGBT situations. I tire of the argument "you are just on a path to gay" it does not bother me it is just boring at this point.
It would appear that most "bi" people do not have the same need for the very powerful "outing" process that gays often benefit from. Don't get me wrong some do and I have personally felt a greater sense of self when I have shared my orientation with some people. But I see no additional benefit for my life to hang a flag from my car. I don't have a need to broadcast my sexual behaviors to the general public. For instance I love anal sex with my wife but I don't have a sign in the front yard with an ass bent over to prove it. Oddly upon disclosure of my bisexuality, I have often received more support from str8 friends then from gay ones. Perhaps they are just hoping for a BJ lol.
Anyway back to the OP. We represent the worst option to both the extremists - we have CHOICE. We have spent millions of dollars and many lives have been lost in trying to prove that homo/hetero is not a choice. It made sense for these groups. Stop killing us for something we did not create nor can change. I get it. Very important. So now most americans see "gay" as not a choice and therefore some of the judgement has rescinded (Point of reference increasing number of gay marriage states etc... ) But now we come along, those who can chose this or that and be happy. Now what? The LGT world has made inroads by being somewhat accepted (ah not their fault, poor things). Let's face it, the political gay movement would most likely be very happy to have us just go away and stop, what they perceive, undermining their position and power. How do we, as a political group, now convince the str8 world that we too were born this way. What way exactly is that? Some of us can be very happy in either world, some clearly need to have both sexes in their lives, still others just fall under more of a sexual fetish group. The only political argument we can try to make is "who we sleep with is our business and does not effect you" I doubt we will get very far.
Perhaps it is as some have suggested, we are looking for a answer to a non-exsistent problem??? Not sure I buy that, but could be.
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Originally Posted by
slipnslide
Can you name a specific change that would benefit you personally?
I've thought about it and I can't.
As a woman with a female partner who lives in a conservative rural area (albeit not far from larger more liberal centers) I would be greatly benefited personally by any decrease in animosity/increase in tolerance toward LGBT people. The danger to my person and property would decrease, and that would in turn lower my background stress levels. No, I don't live in daily fear of persecution and violence...my life is pretty cushy, fortunately...but the threat is still there, greater than it should be, and does decrease my quality of life.
Less dramatic but more specific to bisexuality, if people better recognized bisexuality as a sexuality and a real phenomenon in the world, I would get fewer questions/insistences that I am actually lesbian. People simply would be less likely to make that assumption when they see a female couple. This one doesn't lower my quality of life nearly so much, but still measurably so.
These are two off the top of my head, and you only asked for one, so I'll stop here.
It's also worth recognizing that the first change I mentioned might benefit me significantly-but-no-hugely, but it would benefit others in the LGBT community drastically. Unlike you, perhaps, I don't require a cause to benefit me personally in order for me to support it. Intolerance toward the LGBT is simply ignorant and unjust...those two things alone are worth fighting against, regardless of any personal benefit.
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Originally Posted by
BiDaveDtown
What about those of us who are out as bisexual and have been for decades or years and we're accepted by others in the LGBT community and we're fine with being included in with gay men, lesbians, and trans people?
What about you? You're awesome! Keep doing what you're doing.
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Diva
I will ask again if you have actually read the San Francisco Human Rights Commission report? From what you have posted about it not being "their" responsibility, I can determine that you have not read the report.
In fact, it was found that it was systemic within the GLBT group that received funds for programmes for bisexuals was not providing these programmes. They were using the numbers of bisexuals to get funds. There were no bisexuals on their board. Not all such organizations are as bad but "we" don't know. It was "their" fault and not "our" fault that this was going on. I can not remember why the Human Rights commission created this study but I bet that it was some of "our" people...da bisexuals that bitchted about how they were being treated. Structural changes were suggested in the study including insuring that bisexuals were represented on the board of the GLBT organization.
I agree with Pasa about the use of the word "community". There are in fact GLBT organizations in certain communities offering services for some bisexuals as well as G&L & T. Those are the communities. The geographic places were change would need to begin. It isn't going to happen in a more broader generic sense of "community" let alone on some internet website.
That is why djones and Not lost may be on to something. They come from a very large community where there may be sufficient numbers to develop structure and organizations for bisexuals just outside of their GLBT organizations. With numbers may come the ability to receive funds for bisexuals. The now probably more powerful GLBT organizations may resist and resent any attempt to take funding away from them. Perhaps within the community of New York city the GLBT may become more supportive and the bisexuals of New York city may work within but more separate. The squeaky wheel gets the oil concept.
Hell, it is possible my entire country is based on such a community nationally of French and English where the French pretty much get a lot as being or threatening separation...:eek:
Just4
I haven't read the SF study recently but I believe that it addressed the issue of bisexuals who were not visible. Or it addressed this issue by referencing other studies that found those who were not open about their sexuality. Those bisexuals particiapted in the studies and that may be how the Commission partially found the section about medical /stress issues for bisexuals. The commission combined those studies with what was going on within the GLBT organization in SF.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
just4mefc
First off Hello Annika long time since last we debated but I feel compelled to jump in here.
Once again we must start at the beginning... to be a community we must first define who we are. We can't, as a group, even come up with a general description of a "bisexual" umbrella that we would all agree we fall under. We sure as hell don't agree on our basic needs, i.e. does being bi give me carte blanche to not be monogamous? etc etc etc
Tennie mentioned that Bi's in SF were the most depressed etc. But what the study should have said was of those small number of people who were willing to label themselves as bi in our group we found the highest rate of depression etc. Big difference. How do we know if this data will apply to the seemingly huge number of unreported bisexual people? We can't. In fact with such a diverse group and such a wide range it is impossible to extract any meaningful data from the study.
My opinion has not changed much but I will repeat for the benefit of those who do not know my stance... We are only included in the LGBT for the increase in political power we might represent. I am not in favor of removing us from the political machine but I do not feel welcome in most LGBT situations. I tire of the argument "you are just on a path to gay" it does not bother me it is just boring at this point.
It would appear that most "bi" people do not have the same need for the very powerful "outing" process that gays often benefit from. Don't get me wrong some do and I have personally felt a greater sense of self when I have shared my orientation with some people. But I see no additional benefit for my life to hang a flag from my car. I don't have a need to broadcast my sexual behaviors to the general public. For instance I love anal sex with my wife but I don't have a sign in the front yard with an ass bent over to prove it. Oddly upon disclosure of my bisexuality, I have often received more support from str8 friends then from gay ones. Perhaps they are just hoping for a BJ lol.
Anyway back to the OP. We represent the worst option to both the extremists - we have CHOICE. We have spent millions of dollars and many lives have been lost in trying to prove that homo/hetero is not a choice. It made sense for these groups. Stop killing us for something we did not create nor can change. I get it. Very important. So now most americans see "gay" as not a choice and therefore some of the judgement has rescinded (Point of reference increasing number of gay marriage states etc... ) But now we come along, those who can chose this or that and be happy. Now what? The LGT world has made inroads by being somewhat accepted (ah not their fault, poor things). Let's face it, the political gay movement would most likely be very happy to have us just go away and stop, what they perceive, undermining their position and power. How do we, as a political group, now convince the str8 world that we too were born this way. What way exactly is that? Some of us can be very happy in either world, some clearly need to have both sexes in their lives, still others just fall under more of a sexual fetish group. The only political argument we can try to make is "who we sleep with is our business and does not effect you" I doubt we will get very far.
Perhaps it is as some have suggested, we are looking for a answer to a non-exsistent problem??? Not sure I buy that, but could be.
((((((((((( Just4me )))))))))))) Long time, no see!
I don't really see that we have much grounds for debate or disagreement here. As usual you raise lots of valid and interesting points.
I will say that (although I personally am a huge fan of definition) lack of definition never stopped the LG community from making strides and pursuing rights (some of which are enjoyed by the entire LGBT community). So I'm not positive that having a well-defined and cohesive community is critical for progress. But we do need a critical mass of people who recognize common interests to make progress.
Your observation "I am not in favor of removing us from the political machine but I do not feel welcome in most LGBT situations." is right on the money for me, and sums up beautifully the critical point between djones and the counter-arguments. Djones doesn't want to be part of a political machine that serves (primarily) people he doesn't feel welcome among. The other side views that tradeoff as worthwhile.
I'll tell you what. I don't feel terribly welcome among the vast majority of Americans, either, or feel that the interests that they pursue reflect mine well...but while I live here, I'm not about to bow out of its political process and form my own party.
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Annika L
It's also worth recognizing that the first change I mentioned might benefit me significantly-but-no-hugely, but it would benefit others in the LGBT community drastically. Unlike you, perhaps, I don't require a cause to benefit me personally in order for me to support it. Intolerance toward the LGBT is simply ignorant and unjust...those two things alone are worth fighting against, regardless of any personal benefit.
I guess one problem I have is with the assumption that because I'm bi I should think it's a good think and fight for it just because I am. Where does this automatic acceptance come from? Just because I'm born that way? The people who think it's wrong aren't swayed by poetry. What is the fundamental argument I can present to validate bisexuality. So far, I don't know what that is. I'm not the personality type to just accept things. I need to get in deep and understand.
I guess a high school math teacher would say I want to prove it from first principle. How is bisexuality, as an innate characteristic, more positive than an addictive personality?
For many biological features we can see the evolutionary rationale. Sexuality is was more difficult to explain. Plus, there's hints of research now that suggest it's "curable" and may be treated like anxiety or depression.
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Depends...
is it a good-looking rainbow?
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Re: FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !
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Originally Posted by
Katja
Darling, if it was not for discussion, argument and activism, you would most likely be or have been in prison for your 'hot bi sex' since it was those things that enable you to get your bisexual legover quite legally in the first instance. It was discussion, argument and activism which has made this site possible for you to be able to express your questions and desires. It is discussion, argument and activism which has stopped you being branded a pervert, and it is discussion, argument and activism which may just prevent the world from turning on us and forcing us back into the closet.
Think about those things next time that little organ at the end of your cock goes into overdrive.
All that you say is so true. There is no doubt that my 'freedom' in my own acceptance of my sexuality was a victory. But I realize now that in moving beyond the bounds of my own ideoligies and home that there is a need for activism and organization. Somehow to be able to be looked upon as a 'normal' human being is important and not be rejected or condemned because I am sexual with both sexes. I'm not quite sure how this will be accomplished and is a complicated matter to say the least. But I am so glad that at least now and hear that we are discussing and arguing and hopefully will become active to bring light on who we are. Though usually optimistic, there is a bit of pessimism I feel in relation to convincing the greater public that we not only exist but have the right to be who we are. And yes up to this point we are better off than ever before but the work is long from over. In fact, it's never over. It's a constant and we must be willing to make the difference.