collective responsibility

[wutheringheights]

I have recently come across an article by Bronwyn Winter, an academic at the University of Sydney. I'm not savvy enough to provide direct links, but if you type in 'Bronwyn Winter - Online Opinion Author' ,you'll come across a series of online articles including the one I'm referring to here, 'Women See Red on White Ribbon Day'. This article, which you can read for yourselves, is about an annual organized protest, in Australia, against domestic violence. At one point in the article, Bronwyn, who I once knew personally at the UoS, suggests that men have a 'collective responsiblilty for male violence, whether committed by them or not'. This position is consistent with opinions Bronwyn has expressed in other articles (which you might be able to find online if you search) to the effect that men are at some level collectively responsible (especially) for all acts of violence done by men to women, even if not personally responsible. I won't here go into Bronwyn's background in the theories of 'materialist' feminism but hope that patrons of this site will be able to find her other articles on the net somewhere (I believe they're out there). Assuming that before posting, you have at least read the article cited above, I would ask you for your thoughts on the notion of 'collective responsiblity' generally.

[_Joe_]

to the effect that men are at some level collectively responsible (especially) for all acts of violence done by men to women, even if not personally responsible.

O.o

Someone's got some blamegame issues there.

[darkeyes]

Interestin..kno me has often been accused a bein a manh8r.. an can b a lil hard on the poor dears sumtimes.. but am not an neva hav been.. so as lil kissie an make up 2 the lesser mortals among us hav always held a view on domestic violence wich has got me a rite hard time from summa me m8s an lots who aint..

Ist off will say this.. hav neva been a victim of domestic violence.. no 1 me has eva lived wiv in me life has eva hit me or left me bruised..less ya count me bro an sis wen me wos a kidbut mosta us had that me sposes.... wos married 2 a guy who wos in the truest sense a the word a gentleman.. an sumtimes me pushed 'im rite 2 the wire.. Howeva hav known victims a domestic violence.. quite a few in fact.. an its a scary an appallin thing 2 happen 2 ne 1.. its not always women who r victims of it..sumtimes guys get it from ther wives or partners.. male or female partners..

Who is responsible? Well.. collectively .. we r.. every single 1 of us... wetha we r victim or perpetrator..wetha we r gentle an luffin an wudn hurt a fly.. we r all 2 blame.. Those who do.. for obvious reasons.. those who get..cos all 2 often they keep goin bak for more an again an again they jus let it happen.. an the rest of us?? Well..we kno its happnin, we c the results..we deny 2 ourselves wot it is an accept smashed in faces an black eyes as "walkin inta a door" or "fell ova a shoe" or "dream threshin".. course it can b ne or all of those things but we kno that at least as often as not it aint that.. spesh wen we kno the peeps involved..an we observe ther body language vis a vis each otha..how ther kids act.. sum times of course peeps can fool us an we nev know..but even then we still hav that responisbility.. a societal responsibility...

We allow kids, girls as well as boys 2 get smacked.. in mos countries the law allows it... we let them kno at a very early age that violence as punishment is acceptable wen its inflicted on a child..within limits sure..but we kno ther is much worse than a simple smack goes on an we choose 2 close our eyes 2 it... parents encourage ther children 2 stand up for themselves.. thats gud...but they encourage ther kids 2 do it violently.. an that then is anotha nail in the coffin a sum poor bugga at a lata stage in adulthood.. an as years go on an these kids grow up the violence 2 all 2 many is ingrained an surfaces an resurfaces in the form of child beatin or wife beatin of even husband battrin...

So we r all 2 blame..every man an every woman in our society.. we can nun of us escape our responsibility.. an we shud all accept it an try an change the way our society thinks a violence an start changin attitudes by gettin kids 2 realise that violence is not an option.. get them in ther formative years an we can do wondas wiv the adult wen it cums 2 things like domestic violence...

[hudson9]

To ascribe a characteristic, a responsibility, or even credit, to a group for acts of individuals, is a source of prejudice, racism, and sexism. When a group or a society takes collective action -- that is, acts that require multiple cooperating players as opposed to random individual acts -- then the group can be held responsible, as well as individuals to the extent that they participated, enabled, or failed to oppose them.

To ascribe blanket responsibility to individuals and groups is simpleminded, dangerous, and contributes nothing to either understanding a problem, nor any solution.
:2cents:

[darkeyes]

To ascribe a characteristic, a responsibility, or even credit, to a group for acts of individuals, is a source of prejudice, racism, and sexism. When a group or a society takes collective action -- that is, acts that require multiple cooperating players as opposed to random individual acts -- then the group can be held responsible, as well as individuals to the extent that they participated, enabled, or failed to oppose them.

To ascribe blanket responsibility to individuals and groups is simpleminded, dangerous, and contributes nothing to either understanding a problem, nor any solution.
:2cents:wer ther r failures in our societies then all havta b held responsible for the collective failure 2 adequately address an cure that problem.. it is but small, yet important part in our struggle 2 improve the human condition.. ther r those who r more responsible than othas in ne failure.. a collective failure requires collective responsibility.. it is neitha simple minded or ignorant, far less is it dangerous.. wot is dangerous is peeps attempts at escapin ther own culpability...

... however...wot is more important than ascribin blame 2 individuals or collectives, is determinin the reasons wy domestic violence or ne failure within society exists.. then mayb we can make real progress.. the reasons r far more complex than jus sayin sum 1 is a bad bastard an ascribin blame jus 2 him, or her for that matta, an moanin that society as a whole is collectively responsible for his or 'er actions... howeva true or not that claim may or may not b...

[DiamondDog]

O.o

Someone's got some blamegame issues there.

Agreed. It sounds like a lot of egotistical mental masturbation (isn't all Academic theory this? ;)) and a load of bullshit on her part.

Valerie Solanas with her joke of a SCUM Manifesto would have loved this woman. ;)

[darkeyes]

Agreed. It sounds like a lot of egotistical mental masturbation (isn't all Academic theory this? ;)) and a load of bullshit on her part.

Valerie Solanas with her joke of a SCUM Manifesto would have loved this woman. ;)

ooo egotistical mental masturbation an bullshit..not summat ya knos much bout then DD..;).. me much less nice than mumsy..:tong:

[darkeyes]

Q. if the German people in 1945 r held collectively responsible for the holocaust... even allowin for its much more drastic nature...wer is the diff tween that an western societies bein held collectively responsible for domestic violence...????

[izzfan]

Blaming all men just because some of them commit acts of domestic violence? By all means blame the person who is commiting the crime but to blame all men and make sweeping generalisations like that - sounds a lot like sexism to me. Also, she is assuming that women have never ever commited a single act of domestic violence and that it is an entirely male problem. I somehow doubt this.

[darkeyes]

Blaming all men just because some of them commit acts of domestic violence? By all means blame the person who is commiting the crime but to blame all men and make sweeping generalisations like that - sounds a lot like sexism to me. Also, she is assuming that women have never ever commited a single act of domestic violence and that it is an entirely male problem. I somehow doubt this.
Domestic violence, like any kind of violence is society's problem which it has not addressed adequately. Therefore society is to blame. Who is society? We are. Every Man woman and child make up society. I can for the large part excuse the children, but I cannot excuse the adult population irrespective of sex. It is adult society which perpetuates the attitudes, conditions and circumstances which create domestic violence, nor has it satisfactorily explored and explained why it happens, therefore every adult must take their share of responsibility. Of course the most culpable is the perpetrator but we must bear our own personal responsibility.

[FalconAngel]

Well, according to the latest information (at least here in the US), DV is instigated by women 51% of the time.

Sounds like this woman just wants to blame someone rather than actually deal with the issue of DV.
It's the same old story with her type; Men - bad, woman - good.

'When women behave badly, we seek to understand; when men behave badly, we condemn them'
November 15th, 2008 by Robert Franklin

[Note: Reader Robert Franklin, a retired business attorney, has joined the blogging team at www.glennsacks.com. All of Robert's posts are available here.--GS]

Here’s another case of a mother apparently killing her children. Although we don’t know exactly what happened, we do know it’s a terrible tragedy. The story is here.

From where I stand, there are two issues about the way this is reported. First the article says nothing about the boys’ father. Is he alive? Where is he? Did he play any part in these children’s lives? If not, why not? It’s a powerful condemnation of the society we live in that fathers seem to be so marginalized that they don’t even bare mentioning in stories like these.

Second, note the way the mother is referred to. Her behavior, according to the story was “a cry for help.” If a father had murdered his toddlers, would we say he was crying out for help? I’ve never seen it and I frankly don’t expect to.

So this story falls into the familiar pattern – when women behave badly, we seek to understand why; when men behave badly, we judge and condemn them. One approach is love and understanding; the other is condemnation. The difference is based on the sex of the bad actor.

That sexism is destructive in itself, but it’s worse than that, for both men and women. By failing to treat equally the bad parenting of mothers and fathers, the media, pundits, etc. promote the idea that women are qualified to be parents and men are not. (This article does more than just suggest that the mother was a perfectly good parent in need of help.)

In doing so, they encourage women to engage in the role of parent and men not to. That obviously encourages the wide array of discrimination men face in family courts today. After all, if men aren’t good parents, why enforce their parental rights?

It also tends to turn women away from work as their primary occupation which results in the lower wages and savings, fewer promotions and greater vulnerability to financial risk in old age we see in women today. Every article like this is a two-sided coin for women. The side we see is the one that extols women as parents; the side we don’t see is the one that nudges them away from work and financial equality.

For parents of both sexes, it’s a lose-lose proposition. Equal treatment of men and women in the media benefits both sexes.

[**Peg**]

Blaming all men just because some of them commit acts of domestic violence? By all means blame the person who is commiting the crime but to blame all men and make sweeping generalisations like that - sounds a lot like sexism to me....


paraphrasing Azrael (in another older thread):

"sweeping generalizations are the refuge of the intellectually irresponsible"

so wise for one so young!

Peg

[allbimyself]

Fran, my dear, I won't debate you on whether or not society is responsible for the acts of individuals. The basic premise shows a great deal of compassion but very little reason. Society, as you put it, has made great strides in correcting injustice and preventing such things as DV. However, society is made of humans and the collective is no less human than an individual and is not perfect. Blaming society for it's lack of perfection while excusing the lack of perfection of individuals is intellectual masturbation, it makes one feel good but doesn't produce anything.

That said, the OPs point was that the author did not blame society for DV, but all MEN for the acts of individuals. Saying that is sexist, just as saying that all black people are responsible for the one that peddles drugs is racist.

[darkeyes]

Fran, my dear, I won't debate you on whether or not society is responsible for the acts of individuals. The basic premise shows a great deal of compassion but very little reason. Society, as you put it, has made great strides in correcting injustice and preventing such things as DV. However, society is made of humans and the collective is no less human than an individual and is not perfect. Blaming society for it's lack of perfection while excusing the lack of perfection of individuals is intellectual masturbation, it makes one feel good but doesn't produce anything.

That said, the OPs point was that the author did not blame society for DV, but all MEN for the acts of individuals. Saying that is sexist, just as saying that all black people are responsible for the one that peddles drugs is racist.

Awww Allbi..like ole times...lil disagreement.... will bollok ya wen me has more time..tee hee.. kissie:tong:

[wikskul]

ok so i was married at one point to an abusive man... and yes i had problems with men after that.. but blame all for the acts of one... that is like blaming a gender for one cheating... or lying.. i just cant see why to make the whole gender be responsible for the acts of a few. now if the men were standing there and let it happen.. or ignored it then that is one thing... but no, i have to say blame is on that person.. not on a whole gender.

[darkeyes]

Fran, my dear, I won't debate you on whether or not society is responsible for the acts of individuals. The basic premise shows a great deal of compassion but very little reason. Society, as you put it, has made great strides in correcting injustice and preventing such things as DV. However, society is made of humans and the collective is no less human than an individual and is not perfect. Blaming society for it's lack of perfection while excusing the lack of perfection of individuals is intellectual masturbation, it makes one feel good but doesn't produce anything.

That said, the OPs point was that the author did not blame society for DV, but all MEN for the acts of individuals. Saying that is sexist, just as saying that all black people are responsible for the one that peddles drugs is racist.
Gr8 strides Allbi me luff mayb.. mayb not...tis an arguable point..an do agree that in recent years society has made progress an becum more enlightened bout it..but it not ther yet..by a long way.. hold 2 me riginal statement..we r all responsible for the faults wich exist wivin society includin domestic violence.. an don care wot the author sed..seems 2 me she a bitter an twisted an yea..very sexist cow who shud look at ersel fore she dus otha peeps... accept me own share a responsibility for the ills a society...think every 1 of us shud do the same...

Now..its party time..luffya ratbag..:tong:

[allbimyself]

Gr8 strides Allbi me luff mayb.. mayb not...tis an arguable point..an do agree that in recent years society has made progress an becum more enlightened bout it..but it not ther yet..by a long way.. hold 2 me riginal statement..we r all responsible for the faults wich exist wivin society includin domestic violence.. an don care wot the author sed..seems 2 me she a bitter an twisted an yea..very sexist cow who shud look at ersel fore she dus otha peeps... accept me own share a responsibility for the ills a society...think every 1 of us shud do the same...

Now..its party time..luffya ratbag..:tong:Never said more couldn't be done. Things take time and there are many things that need fixing. And, yes, things have gotten better. Unless you'd like to be living in the 50's when your Cleaver was June.

[darkeyes]

Unless you'd like to be living in the 50's when your Cleaver was June.Live in the 50's?? Eeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkk!!:eek: U c the total an absolute laka style a the 50's???? An the undies??? Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkk!!!!!!!:eek: :eek:God no ta Allbi.....

[hudson9]

I've been offline for a while, so I missed most of this discussion...


wer ther r failures in our societies then all havta b held responsible for the collective failure 2 adequately address an cure that problem.. it is but small, yet important part in our struggle 2 improve the human condition.. ther r those who r more responsible than othas in ne failure.. a collective failure requires collective responsibility.. it is neitha simple minded or ignorant, far less is it dangerous.. wot is dangerous is peeps attempts at escapin ther own culpability......

Notice that I said: "...collective action -- that is, acts that require multiple cooperating players as opposed to random individual acts" [i.e., institutional racism, freely electing a fascist to office...] " -- then the group can be held responsible, as well as individuals to the extent that they participated, enabled, or failed to oppose them..."

As far as German responsibility for Hitler, et. al., see above. There were Germans who resisted, and there were also Poles and French who actively asssisted. To blame Hitler solely on the Germans is to blindly risk the same thing happening again elsewhere.


... however...wot is more important than ascribin blame 2 individuals or collectives, is determinin the reasons wy domestic violence or ne failure within society exists.. then mayb we can make real progress...

Absolutely! And which is NOT making excuses, which is what less-thoughtful people often attempt to ascribe to those seeking to deal with a problem at it's root cause. When the roof is leaking, you certainly have to put buckets around to catch the water -- but you better look into fixing the roof too!

[vittoria]

ooo egotistical mental masturbation an bullshit..not summat ya knos much bout then DD..;).. me much less nice than mumsy..:tong:


ROTFFLMMFAO!!!!!!:bigrin:

[rainbowmonk]

Hey gang,

This is a very emotional issue for me. I am just going to say a few thoughts. First of all I have been in take back the night marches that have been advocating violence to women. I have also stood up fro women that were abused. With this being said I also have been on the flip side of the coin; this is to say that I grew up with the teachings that men should never hit women... with this in mind I merely stood there when women beat me. I took care of the situation and broke up with them when things calmed down. I agree with the rest of the responses to this post and just would like to add the words of Confucius: " don't use a cannon to kill a mosquito" in other words don't blame everyone for the actions of a few.
thanks for the chance to vent
Monk
p.s . and remember to love each other

[DiamondDog]

ooo egotistical mental masturbation an bullshit..not summat ya knos much bout then DD..;).. me much less nice than mumsy..:tong:

Well I'm not the one who constantly posts pages and pages of BS about Socialism, pacifism, and Patriotism that nobody cares about. :tong:

[darkeyes]

Well I'm not the one who constantly posts pages and pages of BS about Socialism, pacifism, and Patriotism that nobody cares about. :tong:
Mayb so DD mayb so.. but for all that still a lot more intrestin than ur bloody ego..an jus a tad more important... enjoy..;)

[jem_is_bi]

I am male and refuse to accept any blame for violence to women by other males.
I do believe that males are more aggressive than females.
Further, I don't know the statistics, but I bet that most male aggression is directed toward other males. Some of this aggression is very destructive and other aggressive acts are well controlled, as in sports.
I only accept responsibility for participating in and encouraging well-controlled male aggression (sports and other competitions).
I only have disgust for aggressive, destructive behavior by either males or females and refuse to accept responsibility for their behavior.

In summary, I stand with those that are unable to tolerate complete nonsense.

[DiamondDog]

Mayb so DD mayb so.. but for all that still a lot more intrestin than ur bloody ego..an jus a tad more important... enjoy..;)

I don't write about my ego or lack of one (Ego, in the Buddhist sense). At least neither of us write about complete and utter nonsense like Bronwyn Winter does. :bigrin:

Academics like Bronwyn Winter who talk out of their ass and write nonsensical theories like the one she wrote about collective responsibility, don't want to admit that nobody in the real world outside of the ivory tower of Academia takes their writings and theories seriously.

Heh I can see some man hating misandrist dykes taking Bronwyn Winter seriously but they're in the vast minority and not all lesbians hate men even if they're not sexually attracted to men at all.

[darkeyes]

I don't write about my ego or lack of one (Ego, in the Buddhist sense). At least neither of us write about complete and utter nonsense like Bronwyn Winter does. :bigrin:

Academics like Bronwyn Winter who talk out of their ass and write nonsensical theories like the one she wrote about collective responsibility, don't want to admit that nobody in the real world outside of the ivory tower of Academia takes their writings and theories seriously.

Heh I can see some man hating misandrist dykes taking Bronwyn Winter seriously but they're in the vast minority and not all lesbians hate men even if they're not sexually attracted to men at all.

ya rite bout ya ego ok DD..s'ok... wudn b the 1st time me massaged me own ego in ere... r them that say every word me ever rites is bout me own ego..an think ther a lil truth in that...

Not alla wot Bronnie sez is utter nonsense.. ther is much truth in it..wer she reelly falls down badly is 'er overall analysis..which is crass, bigotted an bollox.

Ya'd b surprised 2 hear me sposes, that me has been called a misandrist.. am not a course, but sumtimes even me can c wy sumtimes peeps wud say an think it.. hav even been called a man h8in misandrist (wich is daft since wot else dus misandry all bout?).. don havta drop me knickers for men 2 like 'em..wich is jus wot u r sayin... so we agree bout summat... who knos we mite even agree bout a few more things fore we r dun.. tee hee;) Not 2 often tho... hav enuff trubble findin mesel agreein wiv anotha guy me used ta spar wiv in ere these days an its killin me...:tong:

[void()]

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The above is a picture of a polar bear in a blizzard. Get the picture?

[darkeyes]

The above is a picture of a polar bear in a blizzard. Get the picture?

oooo Voidie..am glad..thot at 1st it wos wot wos goin on inya lil bonce..then me thot..naa Voidie brite..for a guy..so wos eva so glad 2 read the las bit...;)

[Sarasvati]

paraphrasing Azrael (in another older thread):

"sweeping generalizations are the refuge of the intellectually irresponsible"

so wise for one so young!

Peg

Thought this was such a comical post. Cheers! Excellent fun