How times have changed

[**Peg**]

Food for thought

Scenario: Jack goes quail hunting before school, pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.

1967 - Vice principal comes over to look at Jack's shotgun. He goes to his
car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.

2007 - School goes into lock-down, and FBI is called. Jack is hauled off to
jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for
traumatized students and teachers.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.

1967 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends.

2007 - Police called. SWAT team arrives. Johnny and Mark are arrested and
charged with assault. Both are expelled even though Johnny started it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.

1967 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by the principal.
He returns to class, sits still, and does not disrupt class again.

2007 - Jeffrey is diagnosed with ADD and given huge doses of Ritalin.
Becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from State because Jeffrey has a
learning disability.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his dad gives him
a whipping with his belt.

1967 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college,
and becomes a successful businessman.

2007 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is placed in foster
care and joins a gang. State psychologist convinces Billy's sister that she
remembers being abused herself, and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom
has affair with psychologist.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Mark has a headache and brings some aspirin to school.

1967 - Mark takes aspirin in lunchroom and headache goes away.

2007 - Police called. Mark is expelled from school for drug violations. Car
is searched for drugs and weapons.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Pedro fails English in high school.

1967 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.

2007 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear
nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation
is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and
Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro is
given a diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he
cannot speak English.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from 4th of July, puts them in
a model airplane paint bottle, and blows up a fire ant hill.

1967 - Ants die.

2007 - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Homeland Security, and FBI
called. Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates
parents; siblings are removed from home; computers are confiscated. Johnny' s
dad goes onTerror Watch List and is never allowed to fly again.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found
crying by his teacher who hugs him to comfort him.

1967 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.

2007 - Teacher is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She
faces three years in state prison. Johnny undergoes five years of therapy.

[GalacticiaActual]

Sad but true! This is what happens when citizens let the government take over and run their lives because they are too lazy to do it themselves.

[flirtchewieflirt]

LOL! Yup, sounds about right! Thank god we have finally realized how ignorant, insensitive, abusive, and undermedicated people were back then!




.... ummmm, just so there is no confusion...... that was sarcasm......

[curious married m]

OMG, This is so true. And isn't interesting that it is those same folks from 1967 that have created this. Thanx Peg, in one respect it is funny but in reality, it is a sad reflection on how civilized soceity has regressed. In an age when we have all the information to learn at our fingertips, the world population as a whole has lost all of it's COMMON SENSE.
Remember to KISS=Keep It Simple Stupid :2cents:
CMM

[cogregg]

LOL! Yup, sounds about right! Thank god we have finally realized how ignorant, insensitive, abusive, and undermedicated people were back then!




.... ummmm, just so there is no confusion...... that was sarcasm......

How dare you make fun of our government, kids with disabilities, and real problems facing us today... It's people like you.....oh, it was sarcastic...sorry didn't read the rest....:)

and, ummmm....just so there's no confusion, this too was sarcasm!:):)

[The Barefoot Contess]

My views on some specifics:

1. We do freak out about the interactions between adults and children. It is normal and desirable for an adult to hug a child who is crying, and that in no way constitutes abuse. However, I do consider whipping a child with a belt child abuse. This in particular I find scary: “Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is placed in foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist convinces Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself, and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.” This trivializes abuse, which is a reality whether we want to see or not.
2. We do freak out about psychological “needs”: sometime people just need time to deal with their issues, and not thousands of meds or being diagnosed with a non-existent ADD. However, this does not mean that people who need meds do so because they are too lazy to deal with their issues and want someone else to do it for them.
3. I am not sure guns should be allowed in schools or campuses.
4. I might be totally off here, but I doubt police would be called for “possession of aspirins”. That would be just plain stupid.
5. While I agree that the child should just go to summer school and freaking study English, the corollary is absurd: “Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear
nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given a diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.” What this does is, again, trivializing the issue of racism. Of course, these are hypothetical cases, but, let’s see, I could see why an English class that focuses exclusively on the standard variety of English (which is what most do) might be considered demeaning for someone who, say, speaks African American Vernacular English.
6. I don’t think blowing up an ant hill constitutes terrorism, but I don’t think you should be allowed to do it just because you find it amusing.


I am afraid we run the risk here of not being able to see the forest for the trees:

The idealization of the 1967 scenario is just too obvious to actually believe a word of it, and the stereotyping of the 2007 too exaggerated and flawed to give it any credit (of course, every child who is sent to foster care ends up in a gang, right?). This is pure and simple (conservative) Manichaeism to falsely prove the benefits of governmental non-interference. It assumes that people are able to deal with everything on their own, and will agree and settle things harmoniously. Not quite so. “Freedom” is not self-regulating, and the result is that the powerful, the child (Mark) who wins the fistfight, will come back next day to pick up another fight (I might be reading too much into this issue, but to me it is an example of capitalist rhetoric). Neither things were wonderful when people “solved” issues among themselves (or, when as other posters have pointed out, when we were free from government control – please, see the sarcasm), nor are they so atrocious nowadays.

[HighEnergy]

Well actually, a girl was suspended from school for 3 days in Hamilton, Ohio for giving her girlfriend a tylenol because she had a headache. Seems this was drug pushing.

But Contess, you are right, the 1967 version is too idealistic and good progress has been made along with taking things to the extreme. My girls want to learn to rapel from a friend of mine who is a certified teacher. He's stated he loves to teach them, but he's uncomfortable with helping them with the harnesses and the necessary touching here and there while teaching them. I assured him that being touched is a good thing, not everything has to be sexual. But it's a good thing to be aware. And in 1967, I doubt many girls were given the opportunity to even join such a sport.

[BronzeBobby]

Peg,

Your post is funny, but I thought I'd just add a couple funny points to consider so you don't get too nostalgic.

In 2007, over half the United States population has taken some college classes, although not all of them get Bachelor's degrees. In 1967, there were many fewer people who got to attend college, the poverty rate was nearly twice as high as it is now, women could not attend most Ivy League schools, Jews were still excluded from country clubs, and it was illegal in several Southern states for blacks and whites to get married.

In 1967 there was a war in Vietnam in which 55,000 Americans and over two million Vietnamese people would die; in 2007 we are in a war in Iraq in which fewer than 5,000 Americans and fewer than a million Iraqis will die.

In 1967, there was a nuclear arms race, and the Soviet Union had nuclear warheads pointed at every population center in North American larger than 250,000 people.

In 1967, the vast majority of Latin America was controlled by dictatorships bankrolled by the United States government, J. Edgar Hoover was actively sabotaging student democratic movements and civil rights organizations, and South Africa was ruled by an apartheid government.

In 1967 my parents were redlined out of white suburbs and had to live in a tenement even though they were both doctors; their building was burnt down by rioters after Martin Luther King Jr. got assassinated, so they moved to a working class suburb where white people slashed their tires and set fire to their garage.

In 1967, the American Psychiatric Association defined bisexuality as a mental disorder, for which you could be incarcerated or committed against your will to an insane asylum.

In the 1960s my cousins were all born in their parents' living rooms with untrained midwives, as opposed to the birth of my daughter, which took place in a hospital because I have health insurance.

In 1967, there was a war in which Israel was nearly obliterated by an alliance of surrounding Arab countries. In 2007, though Israel is still the source of a lot of tension, the United States has brokered agreements with Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, which ensure the Jewish state will at least survive.

In 1967, one half of Berlin was sectioned off from the other half of Berlin by a large wall, which has since been toppled.

I guess the good old days weren't great for everyone. I have no desire to turn back the clock. :)


Food for thought

Scenario: Jack goes quail hunting before school, pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.

1967 - Vice principal comes over to look at Jack's shotgun. He goes to his
car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.

2007 - School goes into lock-down, and FBI is called. Jack is hauled off to
jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for
traumatized students and teachers.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.

1967 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends.

2007 - Police called. SWAT team arrives. Johnny and Mark are arrested and
charged with assault. Both are expelled even though Johnny started it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.

1967 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by the principal.
He returns to class, sits still, and does not disrupt class again.

2007 - Jeffrey is diagnosed with ADD and given huge doses of Ritalin.
Becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from State because Jeffrey has a
learning disability.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his dad gives him
a whipping with his belt.

1967 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college,
and becomes a successful businessman.

2007 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is placed in foster
care and joins a gang. State psychologist convinces Billy's sister that she
remembers being abused herself, and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom
has affair with psychologist.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Mark has a headache and brings some aspirin to school.

1967 - Mark takes aspirin in lunchroom and headache goes away.

2007 - Police called. Mark is expelled from school for drug violations. Car
is searched for drugs and weapons.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Pedro fails English in high school.

1967 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.

2007 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear
nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation
is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and
Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro is
given a diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he
cannot speak English.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from 4th of July, puts them in
a model airplane paint bottle, and blows up a fire ant hill.

1967 - Ants die.

2007 - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Homeland Security, and FBI
called. Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates
parents; siblings are removed from home; computers are confiscated. Johnny' s
dad goes onTerror Watch List and is never allowed to fly again.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found
crying by his teacher who hugs him to comfort him.

1967 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.

2007 - Teacher is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She
faces three years in state prison. Johnny undergoes five years of therapy.

[arana]

I dunno but Johnny seems to have a lot of problems, doesn't he?

[The Barefoot Contess]

Peg,

Your post is funny, but I thought I'd just add a couple funny points to consider so you don't get too nostalgic.

In 2007, over half the United States population has taken some college classes, although not all of them get Bachelor's degrees. In 1967, there were many fewer people who got to attend college, the poverty rate was nearly twice as high as it is now, women could not attend most Ivy League schools, Jews were still excluded from country clubs, and it was illegal in several Southern states for blacks and whites to get married.

In 1967 there was a war in Vietnam in which 55,000 Americans and over two million Vietnamese people would die; in 2007 we are in a war in Iraq in which fewer than 5,000 Americans and fewer than a million Iraqis will die.

In 1967, there was a nuclear arms race, and the Soviet Union had nuclear warheads pointed at every population center in North American larger than 250,000 people.

In 1967, the vast majority of Latin America was controlled by dictatorships bankrolled by the United States government, J. Edgar Hoover was actively sabotaging student democratic movements and civil rights organizations, and South Africa was ruled by an apartheid government.

In 1967 my parents were redlined out of white suburbs and had to live in a tenement even though they were both doctors; their building was burnt down by rioters after Martin Luther King Jr. got assassinated, so they moved to a working class suburb where white people slashed their tires and set fire to their garage.

In 1967, the American Psychiatric Association defined bisexuality as a mental disorder, for which you could be incarcerated or committed against your will to an insane asylum.

In the 1960s my cousins were all born in their parents' living rooms with untrained midwives, as opposed to the birth of my daughter, which took place in a hospital because I have health insurance.

In 1967, there was a war in which Israel was nearly obliterated by an alliance of surrounding Arab countries. In 2007, though Israel is still the source of a lot of tension, the United States has brokered agreements with Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, which ensure the Jewish state will at least survive.

In 1967, one half of Berlin was sectioned off from the other half of Berlin by a large wall, which has since been toppled.

I guess the good old days weren't great for everyone. I have no desire to turn back the clock. :)

Thank you for this.

[alaskacouple]

I'm old enough to have lived through the 1950's and 1960's, and I can assure you that not every home was occupied by the 'Beaver' (for those too young to know what that means, it's the perfect world of the 'Leave it to Beaver' television show).

There were a lot of dark secrets contained behind the walls of real homes. Like when the neighbor gentleman tried to molest my wife when she was six years old - but of course nothing was done because 'we just don't talk about that kind of thing...'. Or in my own hometown where the cops were all white and wore cowboy hats and you better not forget it...

Some good points in the OP though if not taken too literally. Times have changed, but it's a combination of some good and some bad. The worse thing I think I notice today is that the children are living in a world of fear, anger and violence. But, it seems to me that much of the dis-function is attributable to the type of 'entertainment' in the form of violent music, movies, TV and games that they pursue. A good example is the gun in Johnny's truck - that is an accurate picture, but it begs the question; why did we never even consider using the gun for anything except hunting back then - but today many children will use one to kill a person at the drop of a hat? (the fact that guns are not allowed on a school campus has less to do with "government control" as it does with a real need to curb a danger - what we should be asking is; why is that true?)

So, to gain some value from this OP; why can't we define the good from both times and then determine why some things have gone awry?

[The Barefoot Contess]

(the fact that guns are not allowed on a school campus has less to do with "government control" as it does with a real need to curb a danger - what we should be asking is; why is that true?)



I agree. What I tried to say was that if you support gun control, then conservatives will accuse you of wanting to limit their freedom by means of governmental intrusion.

[Falke]

Well said Alaska!

That has been my point all along, lets figure out why some things have gone south and fix the problem *all without scapegoating of course!*.

I think it has been covered well... Compared to the 1960's some things are much better, some things were excellent, some things suck, and some haven't gone anywhere. Take the good with the bad and keep trying to improve. Atleast for those of us in the US, don't forget what this country was founded on when attempting to solve the problems perceived or real! Too many of us seemed to have forgotten this...

[alaskacouple]

I agree. What I tried to say was that if you support gun control, then conservatives will accuse you of wanting to limit their freedom by means of governmental intrusion.

When they should be asking; "What the F@#% has gone so wrong with our country that we need gun control. Let us pull together and spend some money to try and figure out why our children are killing each other!"

I hate the fact that we need to control gun access - I hate that by not having it many people have been killed without cause. Two evils do not make a right. Nor does one side represent all of the good. It is the solution we need, not hysteria on both sides (IMHO).

[Falke]

When they should be asking; "What the F@#% has gone so wrong with our country that we need gun control. Let us pull together and spend some money to try and figure out why our children are killing each other!"

Did I mention you rock!

This has been what I have said all along.

The sad thing is, in several of the school shootings, the cause was so obvious. Unfortunantly, everyone was so busy scapegoating music, media, guns, etc that it was ignored. So, thus sets the stage for another tragedy.

[The Barefoot Contess]

The sad thing is, in several of the school shootings, the cause was so obvious. Unfortunantly, everyone was so busy scapegoating music, media, guns, etc that it was ignored. So, thus sets the stage for another tragedy.


Out of curiosity, what was the cause, in your opinion?

[Falke]

Out of curiosity, what was the cause, in your opinion?


I know exactly what the cause of some of these are. Columbine is my favorite example as I have been in those kids shoes.

Basically, I blame the zero tolerance policy in school for alot of it. I am not going to go into too much detail other than I was that kid everyone picked on. I am not sure how I got into that position...but it happened. from 2nd until 8th grade every school day was a living hell. To add insult to injury is there were several cases where I was attacked physically, I fought back and given the exact same punishment as my attacker. The only time I did not get the same punishment is when I stood there, took the blows, then walked to the office to report it. Had I been allowed to even defend myself and "prove" that I wasn't a easy target, the harassment may have stopped.

Long story short, a person can only take so much of this before they simply snap. I had the exact same thoughts as what those two that shot up thier school did. I'm by no means proud of it, but being severely abused with those adults who were supposed to keep it from happening neglecting thier duty or just treated it as if it were a joke. Anyhow, I left that school and moved to a different state and things dramatically improved. Sure, I was still one of the "outcasts" and I got into some fights of my own fault. But, it was no where close to the degree I had before.

Anyhow, I blame alot of it on the school and thier policies, particularly zero tollerance. While it may seem like a great idea on paper and it promotes "non violence" all you are doing is instilling a sence of misjustice in children and in some cases, creating ticking timebombs. That is my thought on the whole issue.

[TaylorMade]

I know exactly what the cause of some of these are. Columbine is my favorite example as I have been in those kids shoes.

Basically, I blame the zero tolerance policy in school for alot of it. I am not going to go into too much detail other than I was that kid everyone picked on. I am not sure how I got into that position...but it happened. from 2nd until 8th grade every school day was a living hell. To add insult to injury is there were several cases where I was attacked physically, I fought back and given the exact same punishment as my attacker. The only time I did not get the same punishment is when I stood there, took the blows, then walked to the office to report it. Had I been allowed to even defend myself and "prove" that I wasn't a easy target, the harassment may have stopped.

Long story short, a person can only take so much of this before they simply snap. I had the exact same thoughts as what those two that shot up thier school did. I'm by no means proud of it, but being severely abused with those adults who were supposed to keep it from happening neglecting thier duty or just treated it as if it were a joke. Anyhow, I left that school and moved to a different state and things dramatically improved. Sure, I was still one of the "outcasts" and I got into some fights of my own fault. But, it was no where close to the degree I had before.

Anyhow, I blame alot of it on the school and thier policies, particularly zero tollerance. While it may seem like a great idea on paper and it promotes "non violence" all you are doing is instilling a sence of misjustice in children and in some cases, creating ticking timebombs. That is my thought on the whole issue.

Ditto. . .throw in oblivious parents. . .and you have a major problem.

Many girls go to the ultimate solution to their bullying as well, usually only confining the death to themselves alone.

*Taylor*

[Falke]

Ditto. . .throw in oblivious parents. . .and you have a major problem.

Many girls go to the ultimate solution to their bullying as well, usually only confining the death to themselves alone.

*Taylor*

Exactly.

[The Barefoot Contess]

I know exactly what the cause of some of these are. Columbine is my favorite example as I have been in those kids shoes.

Basically, I blame the zero tolerance policy in school for alot of it. I am not going to go into too much detail other than I was that kid everyone picked on. I am not sure how I got into that position...but it happened. from 2nd until 8th grade every school day was a living hell. To add insult to injury is there were several cases where I was attacked physically, I fought back and given the exact same punishment as my attacker. The only time I did not get the same punishment is when I stood there, took the blows, then walked to the office to report it. Had I been allowed to even defend myself and "prove" that I wasn't a easy target, the harassment may have stopped.

Long story short, a person can only take so much of this before they simply snap. I had the exact same thoughts as what those two that shot up thier school did. I'm by no means proud of it, but being severely abused with those adults who were supposed to keep it from happening neglecting thier duty or just treated it as if it were a joke. Anyhow, I left that school and moved to a different state and things dramatically improved. Sure, I was still one of the "outcasts" and I got into some fights of my own fault. But, it was no where close to the degree I had before.

Anyhow, I blame alot of it on the school and thier policies, particularly zero tollerance. While it may seem like a great idea on paper and it promotes "non violence" all you are doing is instilling a sence of misjustice in children and in some cases, creating ticking timebombs. That is my thought on the whole issue.

I completely understand... the tragedy about school shootings is that so often they do make sense...

[nothings5d]

I know exactly what the cause of some of these are. Columbine is my favorite example as I have been in those kids shoes.

Basically, I blame the zero tolerance policy in school for alot of it. I am not going to go into too much detail other than I was that kid everyone picked on. I am not sure how I got into that position...but it happened. from 2nd until 8th grade every school day was a living hell. To add insult to injury is there were several cases where I was attacked physically, I fought back and given the exact same punishment as my attacker. The only time I did not get the same punishment is when I stood there, took the blows, then walked to the office to report it. Had I been allowed to even defend myself and "prove" that I wasn't a easy target, the harassment may have stopped.

Long story short, a person can only take so much of this before they simply snap. I had the exact same thoughts as what those two that shot up thier school did. I'm by no means proud of it, but being severely abused with those adults who were supposed to keep it from happening neglecting thier duty or just treated it as if it were a joke. Anyhow, I left that school and moved to a different state and things dramatically improved. Sure, I was still one of the "outcasts" and I got into some fights of my own fault. But, it was no where close to the degree I had before.

Anyhow, I blame alot of it on the school and thier policies, particularly zero tollerance. While it may seem like a great idea on paper and it promotes "non violence" all you are doing is instilling a sence of misjustice in children and in some cases, creating ticking timebombs. That is my thought on the whole issue.

I completely agree with this.

Though I wasn't a constant target I was often targeted for random violence as a kid, but for me it was worse. I remember one time, in 7th grade I think, I was standing at my locker, I went to pull my book bag out to get a book from underneath it. Next thing I know I'm on the floor in pain. I get suspended.

Another time, definitely in 7th grade, I was sitting on the bleachers during gym class, I'm on the 8th row of bleachers. Next thing I know I'm on the floor of the gym in pain. I get suspended.

In neither of these cases did I even have a chance to fight back, I was unconscious from the first hit. I had to learn from other people what exactly had happened. Apparently with the first one my bag brushed his leg, he took offense and slammed my head into the lockers. The second one was completely random, he just decided to kick me in the kidney so hard that I fell down 8 rows of bleacher seats and ended up about 6 feet away from the bottom.

The reason they did this, their parents didn't punish them for getting suspended, so every once in a while, whenever they didn't feel like going to school for a while, they attacked someone, I just happened to be the random choice on those occasions. And, to be truly honest, after a while of stuff like this happening I was in a very severe state of depression. Sometimes I wanted to get back at them, sometimes I would have just rather been dead. I know that if I had had access to a gun I would've done exactly what was done at Columbine. I'm just glad that I didn't have access to a gun and that my family moved away before I killed myself.

Zero tolerance policies were instituted to remove the possibility of punishing the wrong person, so instead you punish them both. That system is far less fair than accidentally blaming the wrong person occasionally.

[eddy10]

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Then, law abiding citizens will not be able to defend themselves. "Gun free" zones are a safe haven for criminals to enter without fear.

[PolyLoveTriad]

I dunno but Johnny seems to have a lot of problems, doesn't he?

Its all Pedro's fault!

[Doggie_Wood]

Very true scenarios Peg. Just goes to show you wow far down the toilet our society has drug us and our country. Very sad indeed.

:doggie:

[Doggie_Wood]

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Then, law abiding citizens will not be able to defend themselves. "Gun free" zones are a safe haven for criminals to enter without fear.

They will NEVER get my guns. I'll give 'em up when they take 'em from my lifeless grip.

:doggie:

[someotherguy]

Good Old Days: Abusive parents, siblings torment child, no help available, child suffers in silence, acts up, becomes psychotic, commits anti-social acts or suicide.

Overly Politically Correct Days: Millions of families receive remedial instruction due to widespread education campaigns, intervention of protective services and enlightened judges; millions of children spared the horrors of previous generations.

Yes, there are idiotic examples of people going overboard. There always have been and always will be twits afoot in a free world. However I think it is good on balance that a light has been shown on child abuse and social problems like bullying at school. I see progress overall.

The one modern trend I hope ends soon is the punishment of female teachers for making boyhood dreams come true.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

lol Thanks Peg, make me feel old why dont'cha! lol
Hugz Sweetie
Cat

[jazzer]

Sadly what you have written has a scary ring of truth about it Peg. We live in a society that is in a legal straight jacket of laws, ordinances, by laws and often endless litigation. The lawyers must love it. Often the bottom line is that people have become used to the idea of not accepting responsibility for their own actions and the legal way to mug your neighbour is by suing the ass off him!
If Johnny fails his examinations in 2008 his parents will probably sue the teacher for incompetence or at worst Johnny will get a hand gun and remove him permanently from the teaching system.
Thanks for your insight Peg.

Cheers Jazzer :2cents:

[the mage]

In an enlightened society we would embrace the delight of our existence while accepting the need to limit our numbers.

We are not enlightened.
We are not free.
We are up for sale to the lowest bidder.

[**Peg**]

Sadly what you have written has a scary ring of truth about it Peg. We live in a society that is in a legal straight jacket of laws, ordinances, by laws and often endless litigation. The lawyers must love it. Often the bottom line is that people have become used to the idea of not accepting responsibility for their own actions and the legal way to mug your neighbour is by suing the ass off him!
If Johnny fails his examinations in 2008 his parents will probably sue the teacher for incompetence or at worst Johnny will get a hand gun and remove him permanently from the teaching system.
Thanks for your insight Peg.

Cheers Jazzer :2cents:

oh it's not mine jazz... I got it in an email and posted it here, but it struck a chord with me too.

[alaskacouple]

So I've been thinking some more about WHY this seeming degeneration in our society. Why such a shift from the "golden days" of the 1950's and 1960's? What is the single largest contributor of the shift? Zwitter brought up a good point about the problems in the schools. But is there not an overarching cause that fuels the shift in not only the schools but in other parts of society as well?

It seems to me that the biggest factor may be the disintegration of community. We all are living a much more decentralized and isolated lifestyle. I know that in the smaller villages here in Alaska, the local people have a much closer finger on the pulse of the goings-on of everyone. In times past all across this country people lived in small rural communities and had the same intimate knowledge of their kids and their neighbors.

However, now we are free to sit in our isolated cubicles and let our insanity become our reality without anyone even being aware of it until one day little Johnny (or good ole' Burt at the post office) just flips off the track and takes out as many others as his modern automatic weaponry will allow.

Of course, the news teams arrive and ask the penetrating questions of the wounded survivors; "How did you feel when he pointed his bazooka at you?" And the politicians invoke the mercy of God. And within a few days it's all good again.

Is it that there is no answer to the madness? Is that why we cannot seem to stop it? Are we doomed to degenerate into a bigger version of the West Bank? Someone please tell me it aint so!

[wanderingrichard]

My views on some specifics:

1. We do freak out about the interactions between adults and children. It is normal and desirable for an adult to hug a child who is crying, and that in no way constitutes abuse. However, I do consider whipping a child with a belt child abuse. This in particular I find scary: “Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is placed in foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist convinces Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself, and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.” This trivializes abuse, which is a reality whether we want to see or not.
2. We do freak out about psychological “needs”: sometime people just need time to deal with their issues, and not thousands of meds or being diagnosed with a non-existent ADD. However, this does not mean that people who need meds do so because they are too lazy to deal with their issues and want someone else to do it for them.
3. I am not sure guns should be allowed in schools or campuses.
4. I might be totally off here, but I doubt police would be called for “possession of aspirins”. That would be just plain stupid.
5. While I agree that the child should just go to summer school and freaking study English, the corollary is absurd: “Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear
nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given a diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.” What this does is, again, trivializing the issue of racism. Of course, these are hypothetical cases, but, let’s see, I could see why an English class that focuses exclusively on the standard variety of English (which is what most do) might be considered demeaning for someone who, say, speaks African American Vernacular English.
6. I don’t think blowing up an ant hill constitutes terrorism, but I don’t think you should be allowed to do it just because you find it amusing.


I am afraid we run the risk here of not being able to see the forest for the trees:

The idealization of the 1967 scenario is just too obvious to actually believe a word of it, and the stereotyping of the 2007 too exaggerated and flawed to give it any credit (of course, every child who is sent to foster care ends up in a gang, right?). This is pure and simple (conservative) Manichaeism to falsely prove the benefits of governmental non-interference. It assumes that people are able to deal with everything on their own, and will agree and settle things harmoniously. Not quite so. “Freedom” is not self-regulating, and the result is that the powerful, the child (Mark) who wins the fistfight, will come back next day to pick up another fight (I might be reading too much into this issue, but to me it is an example of capitalist rhetoric). Neither things were wonderful when people “solved” issues among themselves (or, when as other posters have pointed out, when we were free from government control – please, see the sarcasm), nor are they so atrocious nowadays.

honey, after reading this claptrap of yours, i believe you suffer from OCCD, aka Obsesive Compulsive Compassion Disorder. which is part of the underlying problem with our society today..too many such as yourself just want things to be so neat and rainbow bright saccharin coated pablum. you fail to come to grips with reality until it either hits you in the face or bites you in your overly ample asses and then you want big mommy dearest socialist government to step in, kiss it, make it feel better, and oh by the way tax , over regulate, or out right ban/legislate it out of your life.

yes we have progressed as a nation in general since 1967, however it seems to many of us now that we have gone way past the balance of reason and are now in the realms of ridiculous. i.e, the pendulum has swung way too far in the wrong direction.

as for making english the national language here, remember, that if you are in france , spain, japan, or timbuktu, you pretty much are required to learn and speak the local lingo. probably the most draconian ESL program i;ve ever seen was in belize, a natively spanish and other language culture, where all citizens were taught english as their NATIONAL PRIMARY language. you either learned it, used it, or went to jail or were denied citizenship rights until you got with the program. but, yes, many modern citizens of many countries learn english as a 2nd tongue because they have not only a requirement to, but a burning desire to so that they might come here or to another english speaking country and either improve their lot in life, or participate in some type of international trade/business etc. for the good of their own people back home. it makes just good common sense that you would adopt the local language and local custom of a nation that you have adopted as home. what better way to learn how to expand your mind or be a better, more productive or caring person, than to be bi or poly lingual. trust me , you'll get paid better, and treated better, as well.

the simple truths are that kids do far worse now in foster care, than they did in 1967 becuase the programs charged with supposedly helping them are either ineptly run, grossly underfunded, have staffs that are just worked to the point of passive agressive apathy, or are used as socio political bully pulpits, while the kids who really need a loving home, or just a safe haven for a week or two, fall into the mire on the fringes, or worse, which is what these programs were created to stop in the 1st place. remember, kids are usually pretty smart, they mostly just need good sound guidance and the ability to be able to safely tell an adult that someone is doing them harm, no matter who, and be comfortable in the fact that that adult is able enough and responsible enough to act on that information in a timely and authoritive manner. flawed as it was in '67, it got done. flawed even worse in '08, it absolutely hardly ever gets done.

stop over reacting to everything around you, reading too much into what started out as a simple comparison of then and now and actually use the grey matter goddess gave you.

in short, i extremely disagree with all of what you've postulated here. it is couched way too deeply in P.C. psychobabble and not enough in the here and now.

[TaylorMade]

My views on some specifics:

1. We do freak out about the interactions between adults and children. It is normal and desirable for an adult to hug a child who is crying, and that in no way constitutes abuse. However, I do consider whipping a child with a belt child abuse. This in particular I find scary: “Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is placed in foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist convinces Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself, and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.” This trivializes abuse, which is a reality whether we want to see or not.
2. We do freak out about psychological “needs”: sometime people just need time to deal with their issues, and not thousands of meds or being diagnosed with a non-existent ADD. However, this does not mean that people who need meds do so because they are too lazy to deal with their issues and want someone else to do it for them.
3. I am not sure guns should be allowed in schools or campuses.
4. I might be totally off here, but I doubt police would be called for “possession of aspirins”. That would be just plain stupid.
5. While I agree that the child should just go to summer school and freaking study English, the corollary is absurd: “Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear
nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given a diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.” What this does is, again, trivializing the issue of racism. Of course, these are hypothetical cases, but, let’s see, I could see why an English class that focuses exclusively on the standard variety of English (which is what most do) might be considered demeaning for someone who, say, speaks African American Vernacular English.


You mean "Ebonics", right?

I tend to go to the Bill Cosby school of things RE: Ebonics. A black child doesn't need to be taught Ebonics... it's what he knows among his friends and in the streets. And that's where that language needs to stay. Treating it as if it's an actual language and making acceptance of it an option is the bigotry of lowered expectations... and my parents didn't stand for that, I don't stand for that, and I know many black people - -gay/straight/bi/trans - - don't stand for it either.

If they find a class teaching Standard Anglo-American English demeaning, the problem may be with the method (I prefer phonics m'self), but not with the teaching itself. Or it may be the student that should be shown the value of learning to ...speak correctly for once.

*Taylor*

[12voltman59]

Well--Dickens said it best "its the worst of times, it's the best of times"--and that is true of all times I do believe----things are always in a constant state of change and flux----and every generation has had this notion---"we are the last generation or nearly so" ---it must be something in our genes or something that makes us think this is so----

As far as the 1950s and early 1960s being some sort of nirvana time---if you go back and think about it if you were alive the or watch things like documentaries from those days---they sure as hell weren't---life was not Ozzy and Harriet or the Cleavers, nor was it Andy, Opie and "Annntt BEEE!!" as much as some people really seem to want to believe it was.

My god in the 50s it was the height of Jim Crow and such---and not only was it bad for black folks---it was bad for whites too---we had great black entertainers like all of those great jazz musicians--they would travel to Europe and perform for Kings, Queens and Prime Ministers---stay in Royal Palaces then come back to the states and had to stay in black only hotels.

Duke Ellington sure did get them though--he bought his own train and he and his band lived high in that grandly outfitted mobile home, restaurant, music studio, etc.

As far as everyone was concerned---you were pretty much supposed to live a prescribed life---you damn well had better have been married pretty quickly since "that is just what you are supposed to do!"

We do have a lot more options in life now--for one--it is not so imperative if you chose to not get married and if you want to be a gay or lesbian couple----you could do it in those days but in very few places and not without much risk---today---gay and lesbian couples can live in most places now or at least a lot more of them---certainly the places they do live a far cooler than they would have been back in past times for the most part. In most places in the states----it was illegal for a black and a white to get married--and those laws were not changed until not that long ago in some locales.

As far as life was concerned in those perfect 50s and 60s suburbs---Dad went off to work his ass off---bascially give up his life totally to the company--be the "gray man" and all of that rot!!! Mom got bored---but she had damned well better be quite about it and not complain since she had such a great man who gave her some great kids and provided a nice house full of all the latest and best gadgets that helped her keep the "perfect house!"

You had to have a house in da'burbs, had the mortgage and all of that--and when dad did retire--he lived about two years and then croaked.

This is just what life was like in America---I love Ireland and have been once and it was great--I was there in the early 90s when it was becoming the Celtic Tiger and all of that---Dublin was becoming cool and even smaller places were starting to have Bread and Breakfasts and the like--- but man---I would not have wanted to have lived in Ireland before things changed when the Catholic church ruled things with an iron fist----

Up until the early 70s I believe it was, they still had the last of the "Magdalene Laundries"--- places that were bascially prisons for "unruly girls" who were "wanton whores" and the like---they were girls that in large measure had been raped by the priests and got knocked up---they were basically prisoners in a slave labor system----but of course it was the girl's fault since "women were occassions of sin!" and those sluts made the priests and the young lads rape 'em!

There are a whole lot more things about the past that made it not such a nice place to be--maybe it would be cool to hop into HG Wells' time machine and go back for an afternoon to some of those past times and places----but I really don't think I would want to live there myself!!!

There are certain things that were great in the past----things like some of the great pop music that has become part of the "Great American Songbook" and I have to say---the actors from the "Golden Age of Hollywood" like Cary Grant, Audrey Hepburn, Grace Kelly, et al are much better than those we seem to have today in many cases and I sure would have liked to step back into those great jazz clubs in Harlem and Midtown Manhattan, also the blues joints in Chicago, St. Louis, Memphis and of course New Orleans-I don't know if I could handle the cigarette smoke though since I like the new smoking bans we now have in many places----

"It's the Best of Times--It's the Worst of Times!" and "May you live in interesting times!" is another phrase that comes to mind and I think you do have to agree---we do, for better or worse, live in some interesting times---the reality is of course---we do have to live in the times we do and we therefore have to "deal with the hand we have been dealt!"

[void()]

Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book. - Cicero

No sensible decision can be made any longer without taking into account not only the world as it is, but the world as it will be. -Isaac Asimov,
scientist and writer (1920-1992)

A tragic indicator of the values of our civilization is that there's no
business like war business. -Douglas Mattern 1933

To me it all seems to be the same song, with different vocalists and bands. As far as war goes, there's only been one. It's the war between the haves and those not having.

I recall back to 1990, guys would often leave their guns in their pickups at high school. Hunting season especially found guns in their trucks. No one got bent out of shape over it. At most the administrators requested the guns be visible and with open and unloaded actions. The guys complied. But, at that time there had not been any school shootings.

Yes, times change. The song it seems never does. "Take it all away from those not having. Next verse same as the first."

[The Barefoot Contess]

honey, after reading this claptrap of yours, i believe you suffer from OCCD, aka Obsesive Compulsive Compassion Disorder. which is part of the underlying problem with our society today..too many such as yourself just want things to be so neat and rainbow bright saccharin coated pablum. you fail to come to grips with reality until it either hits you in the face or bites you in your overly ample asses and then you want big mommy dearest socialist government to step in, kiss it, make it feel better, and oh by the way tax , over regulate, or out right ban/legislate it out of your life.

yes we have progressed as a nation in general since 1967, however it seems to many of us now that we have gone way past the balance of reason and are now in the realms of ridiculous. i.e, the pendulum has swung way too far in the wrong direction.

as for making english the national language here, remember, that if you are in france , spain, japan, or timbuktu, you pretty much are required to learn and speak the local lingo. probably the most draconian ESL program i;ve ever seen was in belize, a natively spanish and other language culture, where all citizens were taught english as their NATIONAL PRIMARY language. you either learned it, used it, or went to jail or were denied citizenship rights until you got with the program. but, yes, many modern citizens of many countries learn english as a 2nd tongue because they have not only a requirement to, but a burning desire to so that they might come here or to another english speaking country and either improve their lot in life, or participate in some type of international trade/business etc. for the good of their own people back home. it makes just good common sense that you would adopt the local language and local custom of a nation that you have adopted as home. what better way to learn how to expand your mind or be a better, more productive or caring person, than to be bi or poly lingual. trust me , you'll get paid better, and treated better, as well.

the simple truths are that kids do far worse now in foster care, than they did in 1967 becuase the programs charged with supposedly helping them are either ineptly run, grossly underfunded, have staffs that are just worked to the point of passive agressive apathy, or are used as socio political bully pulpits, while the kids who really need a loving home, or just a safe haven for a week or two, fall into the mire on the fringes, or worse, which is what these programs were created to stop in the 1st place. remember, kids are usually pretty smart, they mostly just need good sound guidance and the ability to be able to safely tell an adult that someone is doing them harm, no matter who, and be comfortable in the fact that that adult is able enough and responsible enough to act on that information in a timely and authoritive manner. flawed as it was in '67, it got done. flawed even worse in '08, it absolutely hardly ever gets done.

stop over reacting to everything around you, reading too much into what started out as a simple comparison of then and now and actually use the grey matter goddess gave you.

in short, i extremely disagree with all of what you've postulated here. it is couched way too deeply in P.C. psychobabble and not enough in the here and now.


I'd rather be compassionate than not give a damn about people. I don't think compassion is an illness.

I'd also rather you actually disproved my points with facts (I never said that children or immigrants should not learn English, and I never said that foster care is paradise) instead of merely insulting or diagnosing me because I am a socialist. Let's keep it respectful, ok?

Yes, I tend to overreact and read into things. I am the first one to admit it. But I'd rather do that than pretending that things do not mean anything, or be happy with a superficial understanding of things. This is not to say that people who agree with the original article's stance are superficial, I just tried to explain what the article was about for me.

[orsacchiotto]

Food for thought


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found
crying by his teacher who hugs him to comfort him.

1967 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.

2007 - Teacher is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She
faces three years in state prison. Johnny undergoes five years of therapy.


Has the pendulum swung to far? Maybe. But here in the UK we have a vivid reminder of what was happening before the pendulum swung.

I would suggest anyone thinking about this issue should remind themselves about what can happen when a society gives adults uncontrolled power over children and then buries its head in the sand about the consequences.

If your local news feed hasn't featured the findings at the Jersey Childrens Home the try typing "Haut de la Garenne" into your favorite search engine and then ask yourself "how far back the other way do we want this pendulum to swing?"

Orsa

I must get round to to choosing a witty or profound tagline

[alaskacouple]

I'd rather be compassionate than not give a damn about people. I don't think compassion is an illness.

I'd also rather you actually disproved my points with facts (I never said that children or immigrants should not learn English, and I never said that foster care is paradise) instead of merely insulting or diagnosing me because I am a socialist. Let's keep it respectful, ok?

Yes, I tend to overreact and read into things. I am the first one to admit it. But I'd rather do that than pretending that things do not mean anything, or be happy with a superficial understanding of things. This is not to say that people who agree with the original article's stance are superficial, I just tried to explain what the article was about for me.

You know, I wrote out quite a long response last night to the person who insulted you. But then I thought, this person didn't even make enough sense to deserve a reply so I deleted it and went on my way. But, I would like you to know that I think what you have said on this thread makes a lot of sense. Anyway, try not to let such stuff bother you - it really isn't that important - and who knows, perhaps one day everyone will wake up to the idea that kindness, compassion and love are not so bad after all...

[HighEnergy]

I'd rather be compassionate than not give a damn about people. I don't think compassion is an illness.

I'd also rather you actually disproved my points with facts (I never said that children or immigrants should not learn English, and I never said that foster care is paradise) instead of merely insulting or diagnosing me because I am a socialist. Let's keep it respectful, ok?

Yes, I tend to overreact and read into things. I am the first one to admit it. But I'd rather do that than pretending that things do not mean anything, or be happy with a superficial understanding of things. This is not to say that people who agree with the original article's stance are superficial, I just tried to explain what the article was about for me.

Let me stop to say you are a high class act.

[dickhand]

I have often said it is a wonder my generation survived childhood . What with lawn darts , toys with small parts , lead based paint , exposed electrical outlets , woodstoves , corporal punishment in schools , saying the pledge of allegence while saluting the flag , having to do chores at home , the BB gun , medicine bottles without child resistent caps , model glue , mercury thermometers , phones with cords , toys without batteries , arcade games with balls and the lack of seatbelts , there shouldn't have been enough of us left to be called babyboomers .

[ghytifrdnr]

yes we have progressed as a nation in general since 1967, however it seems to many of us now that we have gone way past the balance of reason and are now in the realms of ridiculous. i.e, the pendulum has swung way too far in the wrong direction.




Please forgive me if I don't get the quote exactly right, it's from my memory, but some number of years ago economist Thomas Sowell said: " The history of western society over the last four decades is largely that of replacing what works with what sounds good".

I think that's right, and the main reason for most all of the changes between 1967 and 2008.

In referrence to school shootings I heard someone say recently (I haven't fact-checked this) that in EVERY case the shooter was on, or had recently been on either anti-depressant or anti-psychotic medication. The implication was that we should be looking very closely at the side effects of those drugs.

:2cents:

[**Peg**]

I have often said it is a wonder my generation survived childhood . What with lawn darts , toys with small parts , lead based paint , exposed electrical outlets , woodstoves , corporal punishment in schools , saying the pledge of allegence while saluting the flag , having to do chores at home , the BB gun , medicine bottles without child resistent caps , model glue , mercury thermometers , phones with cords , toys without batteries , arcade games with balls and the lack of seatbelts , there shouldn't have been enough of us left to be called babyboomers .


hehe good one!

[Lateralus]

You mean "Ebonics", right?

I tend to go to the Bill Cosby school of things RE: Ebonics. A black child doesn't need to be taught Ebonics... it's what he knows among his friends and in the streets. And that's where that language needs to stay. Treating it as if it's an actual language and making acceptance of it an option is the bigotry of lowered expectations... and my parents didn't stand for that, I don't stand for that, and I know many black people - -gay/straight/bi/trans - - don't stand for it either.

If they find a class teaching Standard Anglo-American English demeaning, the problem may be with the method (I prefer phonics m'self), but not with the teaching itself. Or it may be the student that should be shown the value of learning to ...speak correctly for once.

*Taylor*

You beat me to it, Taylormade. My mom or none of my friends' parents would stand for that bs. "Ebonics" is NOT African American Vernacular English. It's just plain old bad english.

[alaskacouple]

In referrence to school shootings I heard someone say recently (I haven't fact-checked this) that in EVERY case the shooter was on, or had recently been on either anti-depressant or anti-psychotic medication. The implication was that we should be looking very closely at the side effects of those drugs.

:2cents:

I don't know, it seems to me we should also be looking at why so many children need these drugs. Heck, while we're looking; why do so many adults need these drugs?

[12voltman59]

I don't know, it seems to me we should also be looking at why so many children need these drugs. Heck, while we're looking; why do so many adults need these drugs?

My cynical side would say that it has to do with the real religion we have here in America---that religion has nothing to do with some white robed and bearded old man sitting up on a golden throne up in the sky--it has to to with green pieces of paper or at least what the paper represents--money and power--the pharma companies have invested billions on all kinds of drugs--and anti-depressent medications are one of the biggest areas of growth for pharma in recent years----along with drugs to keep guys dicks hard!!!!

We very likely don't really need all of those drugs---but the drug companies sure as hell need us to think we do!!!!

It has been reported that pharma alone has something like 6 lobbyists for each and every one of our US Senators and Congress members--we have a shade over 600 US Consgress members and Senators----so do the math---that is almost 4000 lobbyists just to lobby for the pharmaceutical industry alone---they throw what amounts to truckloads of money into the coffers of the Senators and Congress people----"We the People" barely have a chance to compete with that.

[HighEnergy]

I have often said it is a wonder my generation survived childhood . What with lawn darts , toys with small parts , lead based paint , exposed electrical outlets , woodstoves , corporal punishment in schools , saying the pledge of allegence while saluting the flag , having to do chores at home , the BB gun , medicine bottles without child resistent caps , model glue , mercury thermometers , phones with cords , toys without batteries , arcade games with balls and the lack of seatbelts , there shouldn't have been enough of us left to be called babyboomers .

You might also note that the infant/child mortality rate has improved, and longevity all across the board has improved.

Unfortunately, lots of folks who are less functional, such as after strokes, heart attacks, brain injuries, etc have also lived, which is not always a good thing.