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View Full Version : the fight begins in NZ for the same sex marriage.... and to retain the civil union



Long Duck Dong
Jul 26, 2012, 3:23 AM
ihttp://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7354142/Parliament-to-vote-on-gay-marriage-bill

n NZ, ANY person has the right to a civil union but a compromise was reached over marriage, that it remains the * domain * of religion... and is a exclusive right of heterosexual couples....

yesturday the marriage amendment bill was drawn from the ballot box in parliament ( a maximum of 5 bills can be active at any given time ) so for the people in NZ, fighting for same sex marriage, its a blessing.... as it is the one aspect of the fight, we could NOT win.... basically it is like drawing the winning ticket in the lottery.....

as early as next month, the bill will be put up for the vote and that is crunch time as it is a conscience vote, not a party vote.... the difference being a conscience vote is a vote based around personal belief and opinion, it can be independent of what your party stands for.... a party vote is one that is supportive of your parties stance and so the vote is cast as yes or no, accordingly...

the marriage amendment bill DOESN'T remove the right to a civil union, it changes the rules of marriage, and so we would become a country that has two recognized forms of union, not one...

why two types of union ? what is wrong with one ?

the marriage laws in NZ are still restrictive.....and one of the criteria is the following vows have to be included when people are getting married

Each person must say they take the other person to be their lawful wedded wife / husband or words to that effect.....

the civil union doesn't require that......and that is something is that most important to people that have a different view, belief system, opinion, way of expressing their vows / oaths / pledges....

what still confuses people is the understanding of marriage vs civil union.... marriage is ( in NZ ) a christian style ceremony, marriage is still regarded as a christian union in the eyes of god, regardless of what belief or faith you are or belong to.....and many people in NZ actually have no interest in *compromising * their own beliefs and choices, by being joined using a religion based union steeped in principals that they do not share or believe in.....
hence why the civil union is a popular choice for many people.....

some of the Ideals behind marriage, were that the husband was the head of the household, the union was a vow said to each other and in the eyes of god, that a woman yields to the male, and that the wife becomes the * property * of the husband.....

there is no difference between marriage and civil union in NZ which is another thing that confuses people, as many people see marriage and the civil union as primary and secondary level unions, with marriage having more meaning and value........

as long as NZ continues to have marriage, it will continue to be regarded by law and government as christian marriage and so a ceremony that is christian in basis, regardless of belief and faith.....

people argue that others should just use the marriage ceremony and get over their issue with the origins of the marriage ceremony, which is a good point.... but that is like saying that a person should swear on the christian bible in a court of law when their faith is actually muslam or satanic etc.. or just don't swear on the bible at all....

we see the same fight all the time with the fight to keep christian based prayers being used in official places like parliament, and a refusal to drop it out of respect for all the people that are not religious / christian ( they are told simply not to say it ) but opposition to other faiths and belief prayers being said


its not about taking away rights that we fight for, but giving them to all people equally and we would being one of the first, if not the first country in the world to have the option of civil union and marriage as choices of union for all people... and ALSO the option to change a marriage to a civil union and vice versa, AFTER the ceremony.....


so wish us luck as we work to break thru the deadlock as the biggest obstacle is that we have to convince politicians that their belief that same sex couples should not have the right to be married, is a personal belief, and they were elected to run a country, not use their personal beliefs to deny others the right to be in a union.....and that the freedom from discrimination starts with them casting a vote that ends the discrimination against same sex couples...

darkeyes
Jul 26, 2012, 5:01 AM
Interesting Duckie, particularly so to me at least now as the Scottish Government has announced that it will legislate in the coming year for the provision of same-sex marriage, and that faiths who wish to conduct such ceremonies (and quite a few do) may if they choose opt in to the conducting of same sex marriage ceremonies. Since I am not in the country now, as yet I am unable to find out just what the situation is vis a vis extant civil unions such as my own, or whether they will continue... so for now I make no comment on that.. there will be no question of withdrawing the legal status of current unions but whether these will be reclassified as marriage under the legislation or not I don't know... I assume not and that those of us who have gone through civil union will still be civil partners in law... and that may yet cost Kate and I another bomb for another bash!!! ;)

It is over a century since marriage was considered a religious institution in the UK. Marriage is a civil act performed in accord with the civil law and ministers, imam's, rabbi's et al for the purposes of conducting marriage ceremonies have to be licensed as registrars by the state. There are religious forms of marriage but these have no superior status to the civil form and it is up to each couple what form of marriage they undergo... equality. Now this is to be extended to same sex couples and a good thing it is too. Forms of words such as you describe are easily rectified and present no real problem with a little wit and imagination.

England and Wales btw are not expected to make any provision for same sex religious marriage in their bill when it comes before parliament... odd, since they are already moving towards providing just such a thing for civil partnerships for those religious bodies which want it to cater for those of faith who wish to have their partnership blessed before their God. Nothing is expected to happen in England and Wales before 2015. And regarding Northern Ireland? Don't holdya breath.. that part of the UK has long been the most reluctant to make any progressive moves towards equality for we of the LGBT.

An interesting thing I have found out about same sex marriage in Canada since arriving here is that something like a third of all such marriages in Canada may not be legal. I haven't gotten to the bottom of this yet cos I am not presently doing a lot of web time, watching telly or reading newspapers... so tenni or our Canadian cousins may be able to help, but it has something to do with those in same sex marriages where one or both partners are citizens of a state which does not allow same sex marriage and Canadian law stating that those who undergo same sex marriages must originate from states where such marriage is legal or any marriage conducted in Canada may be declared void.. maybe Canada is a luffly equal place like tenni sez... for Canadians...:tongue:

Long Duck Dong
Jul 26, 2012, 5:52 AM
lol fran, I know the law you are talking about....

http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/advocacy/jan122012.htm

in simple terms, non resident of canada people whose marriage is not legal or would be recognized in their home state ( where they are residents ) would also not be recognized in canada.....

NZ recognizes most legal marriages and civil unions....


Overseas marriages by New Zealand citizens are recognised as legal and valid within New Zealand provided:


the marriage is legal under the law of the country where it took place
the marriage would have been legal if it had taken place in New Zealand



overseas marriages by non resident / foreign nationals are recognized in NZ, if the marriage is legal in the country / state it was conducted in.
IE DD can not marry a woman in kentucky but if she was to go to another state, get married to the woman and then come to NZ, it would be seen as a valid marriage, even if kentucky didn't see it as a valid marriage

DuckiesDarling
Jul 26, 2012, 7:47 AM
I'm following this with interest, I find it intriguing that so many will stand with the LGBT when it's also their own rights they are fighting for, proves what has been said all along, fight for all and all will fight for you.

Long Duck Dong
Jul 26, 2012, 10:55 AM
our opposition are starting to try and rally the troops, bill english ( yes thats his real last name ) is a roman catholic, chester barrows is a lay preacher for the presbytarian church and both are government minsters.. and they are using the marriage is a heterosexual institution stance, and the civil union gave LGBT the right to a union, they do not need the right to marriage stance....

surprisingly, john key ( prime minister ) turiana turia and about 5 others that voted against us with the civil union bill, are indicating they are going to stand with us, so are the green party and david shearer ( opposition leader / labour party )....and the labour party is generally is pro gay rights.....

its early days yet.... but its looking good..... and if a vote was to happen now, there would be a 72 yes vote, 59 no vote...

darkeyes
Jul 26, 2012, 12:18 PM
I'm following this with interest, I find it intriguing that so many will stand with the LGBT when it's also their own rights they are fighting for, proves what has been said all along, fight for all and all will fight for you.
Not so.. for if all fought for us there would be no need to fight... but I do know what u are getting at Darlin' darlin'....

tenni
Jul 26, 2012, 11:10 PM
I wish the people of NZ the best in finding a progressive way for equal rights regardless of gender with their marriage act.

post 2
"An interesting thing I have found out about same sex marriage in Canada since arriving here is that something like a third of all such marriages in Canada may not be legal."
post 3
"in simple terms, non resident of canada people whose marriage is not legal or would be recognized in their home state ( where they are residents ) would also not be recognized in canada....."

I've not read about such an exact statement in the eastern part of Canada darkeyes. This past January there was a kuffle regarding marriage equality and divorce of those who are non resident of Canada for a minimum of one year before applying for a divorce. Here is an explanation /correction of some perceptions.

Two women who were from the USA & Britain married in Canada and then latered applied for a divorce in Canada.(media below is the most right winged in Canada and referred to the two women as lesbians...they may have been bisexuals for all we know) The federal lawyer representing the Conservative government attended the court hearing for their divorce. The lawyer stated that the couple couldn't divorce in Canada under the country's laws since they were never really married here.(due to a remote law) They were not married since their own countries didn't recognize the marriage was another argument made by this lawyer and initially the Justice Minister Rob Nicolson.

This became a shell game of what I consider deceit. Same sex marriage and divorce had happened since 2005 in Canada regardless of country of the two people. It was the Conservative government trying to please their right winged fundamentalists imo. The Justice minister, Rob Nicolson, had been a vocal opponent of same sex marriage in Opposition when the act was passed in 2005. He is in a position of power now. Then both Justice Minister Nicolson and PM Harper claimed that it was due to the previous (Liberal) government poorly drafted just before the Conservative won the election back in 2006 was another accusation initially.

When there were protests, the PM and Cabinet Minister Nicolson backtracked and made the following statement.

“We will change the Civil Marriage Act so that any marriages performed in Canada that aren’t recognized in the couple’s home jurisdiction will be recognized in Canada.”

Then the government said that they wouldn't change the act but find another way of correcting the previous government's shoddy work. Nothing has been done as far as I have read. I suspect that the government wants to pretend that this went away. This Conservative government has been one of the worst Canadian governments to manipulate, personal attack other leaders and parties to gain/keep control. (with slur ads even when no election is on ) Aimed at two different opposition leaders the Conservative ran ads claiming that they were not really Canadian(Does that sound familiar to US people?..;)

We can tell by darkeyes' friends that there is still confusion about same sex divorce. That was probably the goal of the Conservative government. The core radical base may believe what darkeyes was told. It is understandable if NZ people are confused about this too.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/13/same-sex-marriages-declared-legal-and-valid-by-justice-minister-rob-nicholson/

goldenfinger
Jul 29, 2012, 7:40 AM
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=10rBoQPazt0C&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=gay+partnership+statistics+in+denmark&source=bl&ots=03Mx86MWLJ&sig=tZpHk-M-S9L-_CSzy03OlZataAY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yxoVULq7MPCKmQX6sIDgCA&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=gay%20partnership%20statistics%20in%20denmark&f=false

Sorry about the link, forgot how to link.

goldenfinger
Jul 29, 2012, 8:55 AM
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=10rBoQPazt0C&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=gay+partnership+statistics+in+denmark&source=bl&ots=03Mx86MWLJ&sig=tZpHk-M-S9L-_CSzy03OlZataAY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yxoVULq7MPCKmQX6sIDgCA&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=gay%20partnership%20statistics%20in%20denmark&f=false

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-604084.html



Sorry about the link, forgot how to link.

some interesting facts