debt free?

[bigbadmax]

Yet another charity advert on T.V. for a foreign country. Makes my blood boil.
Why do WE have to give money to other countries? If every country refused to "help" other countries financially, then that money could help their own financially challenged people.

In the U.k we hand Europe a staggering £65bn ($97.5bn) per year, or £1000($1500) per person per day based on 2008 figures, increasing daily.

£7.8 bn International aid ($11.7 bn). Surely Africa should be well on the road to recovery even if corrupt officials take 25%, thats a lot of dough being injected ontop of their own money.

charity begins at home, pay teachers nurses and other public employees more and cut your cloth to suit. When we have a surplus THEN give it away...dont p**s it away in the breeze.

bbm

[elian]

Well I've felt this way before - we had to "agonize" here in the US about a few hundred million dollars toward "national healthcare" but yet when the Secretary of Defense learned that Israel launched some missiles and mistakenly blew up part of their OWN country we rushed right over with a few briefcases full of cash, no questions asked.

"Oh gee, we're sorry you got into a rage and blew up your OWN country stupid f'ks - here have some good 'ol American money" "It's not worth as much as it used to be since Bush took office so we threw in an couple more hundred million."

The truth is in a lot of cases that IS why we do it though, it's a carrot and stick type of strategy - it's easier to buy off cooperation from someone who will at least pretend to be our ally than to start another full outright war.

There's enough BLAME for the violence in the world to go around to ALL countries - some of them have been blasting each other so long I don't think they have a clue what peace actually looks like anymore. The only hope I have is that if Ireland can finally find peace then maybe it IS possible to break the cycle of violence after all..maybe they should have some of THOSE folks go over to the Middle East and broker a deal..or am I talking without thinking?

[Realist]

Last summer, I met a British couple, who were over here on vacation. I never knew that GB was giving hand-outs like we were! They informed me that the Brits, Germans, and even France gave billions to other countries, too.

Those who work and produce are supporting many of the incompetent, malcontents, and pseudo friends, while those in power steal money and humanitarian supplies for profit.

I know that some help may actually trickle down to those who need it most, but according to those British folks, much of it is siphoned off into greedy pockets and for weapons to support vendettas and conquests.

What a mess!

[keefer201]

I think you're getting all twisted up on two seperate issues of giving. You initially started out by saying that you seen a "charity" advertisement on the tele and then mixed in the local economy. Charity is exactly that; the free giving of time or monies for a specific purpose. When I give money to a charity it goes directly to them and not through the government of that country.

[darkeyes]

Poor ole Max... Fran has had lil wordie wiv 'er ghostie chums an have arranged this nite thatya get lil visit from 3 spirits wich may allow the blinkers 2 b shorn from ya lil eyes... an' hopefully wen ya r a lil less scroogie an' learn 2 keep xmas well an' b lil less of a humbugger sum 1 will rite that "Many laughed to see this alteration in him, but he let them laugh and little heeded them, for he knew that no good thing in this world ever happened, at which some did not have their fill of laughter. His own heart laughed and that was quite enough for him. And it was always said of him that he knew how to keep Christmas well if any man alive possessed the knowledge.":)

[bigbadmax]

many thanks fran.
keefer. I raise money voluntarillary for 3 charities. 100% go to the charities, however no Govt is a charity and should get their house in order before trying to help another govt.
One should note however there is a charity that 100% funds our Ministry of Defence(mod)- "Help for Heroes" who supposedly help injured veterans.

They raise money for building hospitals,rehab etc, money whicj the MOD should be paying for. They provide no welfare for injured personnel nor help anyone below a "donation" from them below £10,000 ($15,000) because its not high profile enough, nor will they help injured millitary peeps prior to 9/11.
"help for heroes-nope, help the government" mugging in another name.

[keefer201]

many thanks fran.
keefer. I raise money voluntarillary for 3 charities. 100% go to the charities, however no Govt is a charity and should get their house in order before trying to help another govt.
One should note however there is a charity that 100% funds our Ministry of Defence(mod)- "Help for Heroes" who supposedly help injured veterans.

They raise money for building hospitals,rehab etc, money whicj the MOD should be paying for. They provide no welfare for injured personnel nor help anyone below a "donation" from them below £10,000 ($15,000) because its not high profile enough, nor will they help injured millitary peeps prior to 9/11.
"help for heroes-nope, help the government" mugging in another name.

I understand you now. Here in the states charitable giving is tax deductable, depending on how one files their taxes, and all charities are covered under 501 entitlements. As for the UK or the US governments sending in millions/billions in economic aid to so called 'third world countries', and especially in Africa, I find it almost criminal in so doing. Facts have not changed in that the ruling thug will steal the aid and spread it out to his faithful, or openly sell it on the black market to further fund his rule of opression. Very possibly a sniper and a well placed .308 to the head might stem one cannibal from devouring another. I have to say this though; during the arguments over the budget here in the U.S. I have almost been lead to believe that a billion dollars is just dollars in a wallet when we consider the trillions that make up our economy. I am a conservative Republican, but I have no other choice but to believe, that my side is just a bit less criminal than the other sides policies, and the "charity" game is just the tip of the iceberg. Having said all that, I am a veteran and the U.S. government, through the VA, does a wonderful job in taking care of our vets, and does far more for the wounded warrior.

[pepperjack]

Last summer, I met a British couple, who were over here on vacation. I never knew that GB was giving hand-outs like we were! They informed me that the Brits, Germans, and even France gave billions to other countries, too.

Those who work and produce are supporting many of the incompetent, malcontents, and pseudo friends, while those in power steal money and humanitarian supplies for profit.

I know that some help may actually trickle down to those who need it most, but according to those British folks, much of it is siphoned off into greedy pockets and for weapons to support vendettas and conquests.

What a mess!

It's a sad, frustrating reality that the caring and compassionate are exploited by the greedy, ruthless and downright evil. Seems especially so during this time of year, what Madison Ave. has dubbed " the season of giving." This commercial slogan somewhat irks me; what about the rest of the year? Personally, I prefer the expression, " It's not the things you do at Christmastime, but the Christmas things you do all year through.":2cents:

[elian]

If the "giving" you are talking about is as in stabilizing the world's financial system I find it a little scary and very interesting because we are now in a global system..even if people want to be completely xenophobic they still cannot without affecting themselves in a detrimental way.

If you think of stocks as literally trading the power of ideas and money as adding power to intention it becomes interesting to see how the different countries and markets interact. The sharing of power, which is typically a non-tangible thing is now tangible..some people, now countries are learning they have to give, and some people are learning they can't spend what they don't have...and some are.. hmm...

The big question of course, if we had a button that could literally turn a certain segment of the population off, would we press it? or will we learn if/why it would be better not to?

Hitler TRIED to do that without the benefit of any such magic button, so we know at least ONE time the world stood up and said "No, we won't allow that", but that may have been more for self-preservation?

[pepperjack]

If the "giving" you are talking about is as in stabilizing the world's financial system I find it a little scary and very interesting because we are now in a global system..even if people want to be completely xenophobic they still cannot without affecting themselves in a detrimental way.

If you think of stocks as literally trading the power of ideas and money as adding power to intention it becomes interesting to see how the different countries and markets interact. The sharing of power, which is typically a non-tangible thing is now tangible..some people, now countries are learning they have to give, and some people are learning they can't spend what they don't have...and some are.. hmm...

The big question of course, if we had a button that could literally turn a certain segment of the population off, would we press it? or will we learn if/why it would be better not to?

Hitler TRIED to do that without the benefit of any such magic button, so we know at least ONE time the world stood up and said "No, we won't allow that", but that may have been more for self-preservation?

I thought the context was fairly clear but let me rephrase it; giving as in a heightened altruism being promoted, encouraged but limited to just a few weeks of the year. And if said altruism did somehow contribute to stabilizing the world economy, why is that scary? Your response is somewhat ambiguous and I think your button theory is ludicrous, seriously considered only by a select few, The Bilderbergs for example.

[elian]

Scary because I have been conditioned to believe that if I work very hard and am fortunate enough to encounter the right opportunities I can share a portion of the resources of the world, be successful. prosperous and healthy and still have a genuine desire to see those around me prosper as well. What I find is that when one group is exceedingly greedy or chooses not to follow those rules the entire global society is now destabilized and many, many people may suffer for YEARS because of that greed. I guess giving up power seems scary, but I suppose it's necessary?

Socialism forgets some people will ALWAYS try to "game" the system. Capitalism forgets that life is social. When you start treating people like widgets - they AREN'T machines and it should come as no surprise when they start acting out in unpredictable ways. Neither system is perfect, maybe they were never meant to be, without some sort of catalyst change and growth never come.

I certainly HOPE that my "button" theory is ludicrous, you can be sure if it were not SOME people in this world would push it without hesitation..the question is - just what ARE we learning to do in this world?..or are we just "surviving" .. given the decent things I know human beings are capable of doing, "just surviving" sure seems like a waste. Keep giving, love, money, time, talent - what you can, where you can - locally if possible - Individuals and groups of people who care make a difference, even if it doesn't sound that way on the news.

[void()]

I have been conditioned to believe that if I work very hard and am fortunate enough to encounter the right opportunities I can share a portion of the resources of the world, be successful. prosperous and healthy and still have a genuine desire to see those around me prosper as well.

Funny how the ethos seems universal for most in America.

"Work hard, add a little luck and you too may live the
American dream!"


some people will ALWAYS try to "game" the system

Yes and a "select" few are permitted to get away with it. They make it a game where they grease palms with money. Oddly, people forget money is just an idea. And in my opinion it is not a very good idea since it brings about a means to taking away control, dignity from human beings.


they AREN'T machines and it should come as no surprise when they start acting out in unpredictable ways

We rise up and take what is needed to survive, and that's unpredictable? I would think it natural. You poke a starving dog with a stick, only logical you'll end up bitten.


I guess giving up power seems scary, but I suppose it's necessary?

It's not directly power though. It is control. The "gamers" create illusions. Money is one, Freedom too when you really start exploring it. These illusions can be used as prison walls and chains. They are the keys of control. Once you've control, power is but a plaything. The "gamers" follow Sun Tzu, they capture states intact. In so doing they gain control of that state's human capitol. Human beings become a commodity, nothing more.

I believe 1984 has been here far longer than it has been given credit for being. Then again, I'm just a crazy lunatic whom often speaks out his ass without knowing anything about anything.

[pepperjack]

Scary because I have been conditioned to believe that if I work very hard and am fortunate enough to encounter the right opportunities I can share a portion of the resources of the world, be successful. prosperous and healthy and still have a genuine desire to see those around me prosper as well. What I find is that when one group is exceedingly greedy or chooses not to follow those rules the entire global society is now destabilized and many, many people may suffer for YEARS because of that greed. I guess giving up power seems scary, but I suppose it's necessary?

Socialism forgets some people will ALWAYS try to "game" the system. Capitalism forgets that life is social. When you start treating people like widgets - they AREN'T machines and it should come as no surprise when they start acting out in unpredictable ways. Neither system is perfect, maybe they were never meant to be, without some sort of catalyst change and growth never come.

I certainly HOPE that my "button" theory is ludicrous, you can be sure if it were not SOME people in this world would push it without hesitation..the question is - just what ARE we learning to do in this world?..or are we just "surviving" .. given the decent things I know human beings are capable of doing, "just surviving" sure seems like a waste. Keep giving, love, money, time, talent - what you can, where you can - locally if possible - Individuals and groups of people who care make a difference, even if it doesn't sound that way on the news.

Well, it's undeniable that there's a lot of anxiety and fear out there, so much uncertainty about the future. I believe in Bible prophecy, so I see much of what's happening in the world as prophecy being fulfilled. And while your "button" seemed ludicrous, it doesn't appear as if genocide will be disappearing from this planet anytime soon. If Iran isn't stopped, a literal push of the button could decimate millions of Jews once again. So I guess your concept wasn't so far-fetched after all. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy. (excerpt from Desiderata by Max Ehrman) Coincides with Jesus when he said, " In the world ye shall have tribulation:but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

[pepperjack]

Funny how the ethos seems universal for most in America.

"Work hard, add a little luck and you too may live the
American dream!"



Yes and a "select" few are permitted to get away with it. They make it a game where they grease palms with money. Oddly, people forget money is just an idea. And in my opinion it is not a very good idea since it brings about a means to taking away control, dignity from human beings.



We rise up and take what is needed to survive, and that's unpredictable? I would think it natural. You poke a starving dog with a stick, only logical you'll end up bitten.



It's not directly power though. It is control. The "gamers" create illusions. Money is one, Freedom too when you really start exploring it. These illusions can be used as prison walls and chains. They are the keys of control. Once you've control, power is but a plaything. The "gamers" follow Sun Tzu, they capture states intact. In so doing they gain control of that state's human capitol. Human beings become a commodity, nothing more.

I believe 1984 has been here far longer than it has been given credit for being. Then again, I'm just a crazy lunatic whom often speaks out his ass without knowing anything about anything.

I enjoyed Animal Farm more; "All animals are created equal" later revised to "All animals are equal...but some are more equal than others." Sound familiar? Void, why do you put yourself down the way you do? I feel like I get more than enough of that from the rest of the world. You really ARE depressed, aren't you?

[DuckiesDarling]

I have to say, Max, I do agree with most of your opening statement. I know it's a hard attitude to have in the climate today with all the tragedies going on around the world that are both manmade and natural. But I do feel that a nation that is struggling itself should concentrate on helping more at home rather than trying to care for the needs of a nation across the globe. Charity does begin at home. Here in America we still have people living in FEMA trailers after Katrina.... why? They aren't what you would call "desirable" they are the low income and mostly colored people of New Orlean's and it's 9th Ward.


At some point every country needs to take stock of the needs of it's own citizens before promising billions in aid to other countries. That being said, there is nothing so heartwrenching as seeing live and in color starving children in Africa. We can't stop cold turkey but we definitely should slow down the outflow and take care of those who live within our own borders. :2cents:

[pepperjack]

I also agree with both of you. Have contributed to various charities through the years ( homeless runaway children, disabled veterans, starving children in Africa etc.) but now only give to a couple I trust. During a recent gift, before mailing it, I prayed and pleaded with God that the money would actually go to the people needing it. Sign of the times.

[elian]

(excerpt from Desiderata by Max Ehrman) Coincides with Jesus when he said, " In the world ye shall have tribulation:but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jesus was the best at taking Eastern Religion and translating it..did people always believe in spiritual transcendence?

It's just a very thin line to walk, between forgiving people and letting them get away with things that seriously hurt and damage. Of course Void is right in at least one thing, control really IS an illusion - if I think I am so far separate from any of these other groups then I really am deluded. My actions affect other people and their actions affect me.

Pepperjack is right too, it doesn't do any good to not look at the roses. Have to appreciate beauty for what it is, "beauty" isn't always "perfect".

[void()]

You really ARE depressed, aren't you?

That's what three different mental doctors say. A psychologist, two psychoanalysts. I also took a year working with rehab services. Learned that yes, I need to be and am responsible and in control of emotions and passions. There are still bad days, and better days. I manage and am diligent in staying afloat.

No longer feel the whole problem is simply a matter of something in my control. Not all of it truly is in my control. Knowing that makes it a little more bearable, even if do not understand everything involved. This obscurity through complexity is part of the Grand Illusion the 'gamers' use, I believe. It provides them with a billy club.

"You are not educated to understand these vast complex ideas and concepts. You must not speak about them because doing so betrays your ignorance. And if you do try to learn, good luck with that. Our colleges will bind you up in debt for life, and your children's' children's lives."

Often find it funny when I mention being active on the internet and web roughly twenty to twenty five years. I am a good autodidact with all the tools needed, same as Henry Ford. Talk about education to him. He only had a third grade one. He had buttons on his desk to call people who knew, or knew how to find out and report back. In this way he built an empire all his own.

People like forgetting stuff like that, though. Like elian is fond of saying. No one wants to be educated now, they just want entertained. And it is because they figure that all those advance ideas and concepts cost a lot to learn.


Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. -- Archimedes

Fortune favors the prepared mind. -- Louis Pasteur

Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal. My strength lies solely in my tenacity. -- Louis Pasteur

Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist. -- Epicurus

It is better for you to be free of fear lying upon a pallet, than to have a golden couch and a rich table and be full of trouble. -- Epicurus

Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little. -- Epicurus


There are the basics, the fundamentals. Once you can grasp those, building bigger, more advanced ideas and concepts becomes a snap. Other basics exist, these serve as alliterated example. The point being seek and find what you need. Remember the logic of the Rolling Stones, too. You may not always get what you ask for but, if you look you might find just what you need. And these quotes along with discussions of philosophy, economics, policy issues ... available free on the web.

Experience can be written about, too. This is why human beings first told stories. So, one can learn easily now. And the gamers expect that, too. Hence, they often bar employment with requiring a college degree. Sorry it is not my 'game', no need to play it.

I have other things which engage. For example what I tell elian below. Also, will pick up a system administrator course next Summer. Meanwhile, a local Goodwill might find me employed, even if only part time. Once basic needs are met the rest is folly. Plan on starting to pay larger debts off if able to work as computer person. If not, will just continue doing the best able with what is available.

Guess in a way you could say I'm happy. Got a clear idea of what is going on. Frankly, I think all you doom sayers took too much of something. Nobody can know when the end is here, even if you could, would you want to? I think we'll just keep on going. What will be, will be. If it is the end, nothing anyone can do. If not, oh well it's just another disproved prophecy, seems we got a warehouse full of them.



Have to appreciate beauty for what it is, "beauty" isn't always "perfect".

If you do not know you're loved, I've been remiss. Such a rose you are my shiny man. Do not care if you are perfect or not. I see you like the cherry blossoms, all perfect. Feel the same with C, too.

I know too, relying on you two for my own happiness does not work. You both cause me to feel happy, at times, yes. Am glad and enjoy those times. But happiness we each find on our own, or not at all. Currently, I am smelling the rose of honing writing skills. Yes, writing again in earnest.

[elian]

Don't tell the marketers but happiness isn't something you can OWN or manufacture. You might be able to save memories, but you can't save happiness (or love) itself in a box for a rainy day..it's meant to be shared. It is the result of what YOU do with the tools YOU have been given. Life isn't always fair but we all have time, talent and worth of one sort or another..sometimes we forget that.

[bigbadmax]

ELIAN & VOID,

nothing to do with this thread, I know christmas is over butyou can still play with your toys quietly, if not, I will have to put them back in the pram.
stop it, i said stop it or your dad will take them away for good. now behave like good little children.

Thank you.

:tongue:

[bityme]

Yet another charity advert on T.V. for a foreign country. Makes my blood boil.
Why do WE have to give money to other countries? If every country refused to "help" other countries financially, then that money could help their own financially challenged people.

In the U.k we hand Europe a staggering £65bn ($97.5bn) per year, or £1000($1500) per person per day based on 2008 figures, increasing daily.

£7.8 bn International aid ($11.7 bn). Surely Africa should be well on the road to recovery even if corrupt officials take 25%, thats a lot of dough being injected ontop of their own money.

charity begins at home, pay teachers nurses and other public employees more and cut your cloth to suit. When we have a surplus THEN give it away...dont p**s it away in the breeze.

bbm

I couldn't agree with you more.

Yet, one of the problems I don't often see addressed is that these politicians who are giving away our tax monies to other countries are financed by the corporations who do business there. It get's even worse when we factor in not only our money going to third world countries, but our jobs as well.

Aid to third world countries was understandable when our own economies were growing, but the current lack of economic growth means that we are closer to becoming third-world ourselves.

As I see it, the political labels of Democrat, Republican, Torrey, and Labour, etc., mean very little when the vast majority of them should be viewed a "Globalists" beholding to no one but multi-national corporations. I expect that it will only continue to get worse until we find a way to break up those corporations and the citizens take back control of their own governments by increasing their own knowledge and involvement.

Pappy

[pepperjack]

That's what three different mental doctors say. A psychologist, two psychoanalysts. I also took a year working with rehab services. Learned that yes, I need to be and am responsible and in control of emotions and passions. There are still bad days, and better days. I manage and am diligent in staying afloat.

No longer feel the whole problem is simply a matter of something in my control. Not all of it truly is in my control. Knowing that makes it a little more bearable, even if do not understand everything involved. This obscurity through complexity is part of the Grand Illusion the 'gamers' use, I believe. It provides them with a billy club.

"You are not educated to understand these vast complex ideas and concepts. You must not speak about them because doing so betrays your ignorance. And if you do try to learn, good luck with that. Our colleges will bind you up in debt for life, and your children's' children's lives."

Often find it funny when I mention being active on the internet and web roughly twenty to twenty five years. I am a good autodidact with all the tools needed, same as Henry Ford. Talk about education to him. He only had a third grade one. He had buttons on his desk to call people who knew, or knew how to find out and report back. In this way he built an empire all his own.

People like forgetting stuff like that, though. Like elian is fond of saying. No one wants to be educated now, they just want entertained. And it is because they figure that all those advance ideas and concepts cost a lot to learn.



There are the basics, the fundamentals. Once you can grasp those, building bigger, more advanced ideas and concepts becomes a snap. Other basics exist, these serve as alliterated example. The point being seek and find what you need. Remember the logic of the Rolling Stones, too. You may not always get what you ask for but, if you look you might find just what you need. And these quotes along with discussions of philosophy, economics, policy issues ... available free on the web.

Experience can be written about, too. This is why human beings first told stories. So, one can learn easily now. And the gamers expect that, too. Hence, they often bar employment with requiring a college degree. Sorry it is not my 'game', no need to play it.

I have other things which engage. For example what I tell elian below. Also, will pick up a system administrator course next Summer. Meanwhile, a local Goodwill might find me employed, even if only part time. Once basic needs are met the rest is folly. Plan on starting to pay larger debts off if able to work as computer person. If not, will just continue doing the best able with what is available.

Guess in a way you could say I'm happy. Got a clear idea of what is going on. Frankly, I think all you doom sayers took too much of something. Nobody can know when the end is here, even if you could, would you want to? I think we'll just keep on going. What will be, will be. If it is the end, nothing anyone can do. If not, oh well it's just another disproved prophecy, seems we got a warehouse full of them.




If you do not know you're loved, I've been remiss. Such a rose you are my shiny man. Do not care if you are perfect or not. I see you like the cherry blossoms, all perfect. Feel the same with C, too.

I know too, relying on you two for my own happiness does not work. You both cause me to feel happy, at times, yes. Am glad and enjoy those times. But happiness we each find on our own, or not at all. Currently, I am smelling the rose of honing writing skills. Yes, writing again in earnest.

A fan of Stephen King asked him once why he always wrote about such gross stuff. He replied " I have the heart of a little boy and I keep it in a jar on my desk.":bigrin:

[void()]

ELIAN & VOID,

nothing to do with this thread, I know christmas is over butyou can still play with your toys quietly, if not, I will have to put them back in the pram.
stop it, i said stop it or your dad will take them away for good. now behave like good little children.

Thank you.

:tongue:

Okay da. He started it. He was talking about laying pipe or something. I was just tinkering with the little kit over in the corner. Next I know he's calling for routing and buckets of something called star glide ... *sticks tongue out at elian, hops on bed and lobs pillow at him*

[void()]

A fan of Stephen King asked him once why he always wrote about such gross stuff. He replied " I have the heart of a little boy and I keep it in a jar on my desk.":bigrin:

*chuckles* He's just lucky Koontz was too drunk to understand me yelling "back up, be sure we get him

*wanders off to pick another writer to go Kingpinning with*

[wanderingrichard]

A bit further off the original topic, but this is directed towards Elian primarily and Void just a bit;

check out www.fredoneverything.net for a good healthy and informative dose of cynicism towards amerika's current "system"

Elian, if you are still in the commune wealth listed on your profile, try to make your way to one of the southern or western borders and ESCAPE right now. You are currently in the most corrupt "state" in the union. trust me it gets better after you are no longer spoon fed Harrisburg crap on a daily basis. who knows, maybe your mind will even clear of the leftist attack mentality you love so much.

[pepperjack]

Funny how the ethos seems universal for most in America.

"Work hard, add a little luck and you too may live the
American dream!"



Yes and a "select" few are permitted to get away with it. They make it a game where they grease palms with money. Oddly, people forget money is just an idea. And in my opinion it is not a very good idea since it brings about a means to taking away control, dignity from human beings.



We rise up and take what is needed to survive, and that's unpredictable? I would think it natural. You poke a starving dog with a stick, only logical you'll end up bitten.



It's not directly power though. It is control. The "gamers" create illusions. Money is one, Freedom too when you really start exploring it. These illusions can be used as prison walls and chains. They are the keys of control. Once you've control, power is but a plaything. The "gamers" follow Sun Tzu, they capture states intact. In so doing they gain control of that state's human capitol. Human beings become a commodity, nothing more.

I believe 1984 has been here far longer than it has been given credit for being. Then again, I'm just a crazy lunatic whom often speaks out his ass without knowing anything about anything.

You speak a lot about control. I don't see it as an illusion as you claim it is. Scenario: A man embraces the onset of his impotence as a weapon to be used against his wife whom he harbors unresolved resentments towards; passive/aggressive. The wife inevitably & progressively becomes more miserable & conflicted and begins to fantasize about an affair & "the beat goes on." Oh, crap! Did I just betray myself? I see a possible short story here.:eek:

[void()]

You speak a lot about control. I don't see it as an illusion as you claim it is. Scenario: A man embraces the onset of his impotence as a weapon to be used against his wife whom he harbors unresolved resentments towards; passive/aggressive. The wife inevitably & progressively becomes more miserable & conflicted and begins to fantasize about an affair & "the beat goes on." Oh, crap! Did I just betray myself? I see a possible short story here.:eek:

You appear to have contorted what I said, into something it is not. I said, control was taken from some by the 'gamers' of the system, whom used illusions to wrest control away. I did not say, control is an illusion. Difficult enough to communicate without purposeful contortion of words. Enjoy your merry way from now on, without me. Been more than fair in our conversations.

[jamieknyc]

Yet another charity advert on T.V. for a foreign country. Makes my blood boil.
Why do WE have to give money to other countries? If every country refused to "help" other countries financially, then that money could help their own financially challenged people.

In the U.k we hand Europe a staggering £65bn ($97.5bn) per year, or £1000($1500) per person per day based on 2008 figures, increasing daily.

£7.8 bn International aid ($11.7 bn). Surely Africa should be well on the road to recovery even if corrupt officials take 25%, thats a lot of dough being injected ontop of their own money.

charity begins at home, pay teachers nurses and other public employees more and cut your cloth to suit. When we have a surplus THEN give it away...dont p**s it away in the breeze.

bbm

You realize that the $11.7 billion amounts to $14 a person in Africa- about the cost of a pizza in New York?

[bityme]

You realize that the $11.7 billion amounts to $14 a person in Africa- about the cost of a pizza in New York?

That same $14 is the average monthly earnings for a rural African, urban Africans average $27 per month.

In 2008 rich countries contributed $119.8 billion in foreign aid to African countries. That works out to be $143.35 for each African; over 10 months of the average wages for rural Africans and over 6 months wages for urban Africans.

Takes on a different perspective when we have the highest unemployment rates since the Depression and our own economy is in a mess.

Pappy

[pepperjack]

You appear to have contorted what I said, into something it is not. I said, control was taken from some by the 'gamers' of the system, whom used illusions to wrest control away. I did not say, control is an illusion. Difficult enough to communicate without purposeful contortion of words. Enjoy your merry way from now on, without me. Been more than fair in our conversations.

No, not a "purposeful contortion" but more like a simple "brain fart", something we all have now & then; it was late, I was tired; I misinterpreted what you said about "money being an illusion" & "a key to control." I'm sure you've made this type of mistake before yourself. Speaking of which, your perception of my hypothetical scenario, which had nothing to do with you whatsoever, as a personal attack, was over the top for me. As you wish. I don't need to be wasting my time with someone that touchy, defensive and paranoid. But you're right; you do have a difficulty communicating clearly.

[elian]

No *I* was the one who said control was an illusion, philosophically speaking my bank could go casters up tomorrow, I could get hit by a bus or shot..

but I didn't mean to say that we should use that as an excuse to give up all of our responsibility and potential in this life..maybe what I SHOULD say is that COMPLETE control is an illusion..there aren't any of us who live in a total vacuum.

I would try to be more "on topic" I've said all that I care to say about the subject of this thread..we OUGHT to do more to help the people in this country but so many view that as "socialism" anyway that it's probably not a battle worth fighting over. In the US social work for the most part has ALWAYS been undervalued and left to religious and non-profit organizations. The polarization in this country is driving me nuts..nobody can agree on anything and everything degenerates into a bunch of whining.. <grrr>

For many years there had been economic prosperity but social poverty..whether that is a problem or not depends on your view of how the world should work.

I LOVE technology, it pays my bills - but I also recognize that it can be overused and it can have a crippling effect on society as well. I am amazed that people have such a disparaging opinion of science, but I am just as wary of people who advocate that science is the "only" important thing in life. In the 70's here in the US we were pretty good at integrated circuits, what are we good at now? What value can we bring to the world?

In the typical way we distort everything on this plane (a product of marketing mostly) technology is used as a status symbol and a hood ornament.. ("I'M special BECAUSE I have the latest X") not as a simple tool to get things done. Research and development of technology is important, but technology itself ought to be in the background, non intrusive - the really important things in life - personal development, family, community ought to be front and center .. but again we have flat two dimensional concepts of what those things mean too..all of it squeezed into 5 minute news segments and the like..

Marketers have worked hard to make sure that you see their devices as a personal extension of your being..I've even heard stories of people texting during funerals..that seems rude to me but I guess some people can't "live" without their facebook for an hour. It always bothers me when people ask me to set up wifi for something like a church .. ubiquitous network access to me seems almost like potentially enabling an addictive behavior. I thought people went to church to connect with other people..in person.

When I learned to drive we were taught that if you saw another driver pulled over on the side of the road it was courteous to change lanes and give the person some room..I NEVER see people do that anymore, even if someone is changing a tire on a bridge with a narrow shoulder..what the hell is wrong with people? Are we so self-absorbed now and so self-important that we can't show other people some courtesy?

Gawd, now I KNOW I'm a cranky old man. Sorry, so much for talking about "control"

The only reason we donate oodles of cash to other countries, as a nation at the Federal level is to promote the security of the state..which is arguably one of the proper functions of the government in this country..but everything is so upside down that all people can do is cry.

[pepperjack]

No *I* was the one who said control was an illusion, philosophically speaking my bank could go casters up tomorrow, I could get hit by a bus or shot..

but I didn't mean to say that we should use that as an excuse to give up all of our responsibility and potential in this life..maybe what I SHOULD say is that COMPLETE control is an illusion..there aren't any of us who live in a total vacuum.

I would try to be more "on topic" I've said all that I care to say about the subject of this thread..we OUGHT to do more to help the people in this country but so many view that as "socialism" anyway that it's probably not a battle worth fighting over. In the US social work for the most part has ALWAYS been undervalued and left to religious and non-profit organizations. The polarization in this country is driving me nuts..nobody can agree on anything and everything degenerates into a bunch of whining.. <grrr>

For many years there had been economic prosperity but social poverty..whether that is a problem or not depends on your view of how the world should work.

I LOVE technology, it pays my bills - but I also recognize that it can be overused and it can have a crippling effect on society as well. I am amazed that people have such a disparaging opinion of science, but I am just as wary of people who advocate that science is the "only" important thing in life. In the 70's here in the US we were pretty good at integrated circuits, what are we good at now? What value can we bring to the world?

In the typical way we distort everything on this plane (a product of marketing mostly) technology is used as a status symbol and a hood ornament.. ("I'M special BECAUSE I have the latest X") not as a simple tool to get things done. Research and development of technology is important, but technology itself ought to be in the background, non intrusive - the really important things in life - personal development, family, community ought to be front and center .. but again we have flat two dimensional concepts of what those things mean too..all of it squeezed into 5 minute news segments and the like..

Marketers have worked hard to make sure that you see their devices as a personal extension of your being..I've even heard stories of people texting during funerals..that seems rude to me but I guess some people can't "live" without their facebook for an hour. It always bothers me when people ask me to set up wifi for something like a church .. ubiquitous network access to me seems almost like potentially enabling an addictive behavior. I thought people went to church to connect with other people..in person.

When I learned to drive we were taught that if you saw another driver pulled over on the side of the road it was courteous to change lanes and give the person some room..I NEVER see people do that anymore, even if someone is changing a tire on a bridge with a narrow shoulder..what the hell is wrong with people? Are we so self-absorbed now and so self-important that we can't show other people some courtesy?

Gawd, now I KNOW I'm a cranky old man. Sorry, so much for talking about "control"

The only reason we donate oodles of cash to other countries, as a nation at the Federal level is to promote the security of the state..which is arguably one of the proper functions of the government in this country..but everything is so upside down that all people can do is cry.

Thanks for setting the record straight. I thought I had read that; simply got caught between you & Void & got a little confused about who said what. I agree with you that complete control is an illusion. We've been experiencing an obvious trend this year with the removal of several dictators. Also agree that technology is a mixed bag, blessing & curse. It's sad that simple charity should be seen as socialism. Maybe we should be more like Donald Trump; he sees China as the enemy & maybe he's right. We're indebted to China ( which to me is like being indebted to the mob), and yet we send them foreign aid.:rolleyes: Naw, I'm probably closer to being a curmudgeon than you are.:)

[elian]

Maybe we should be more like Donald Trump; he sees China as the enemy & maybe he's right. We're indebted to China ( which to me is like being indebted to the mob), and yet we send them foreign aid.:rolleyes: Naw, I'm probably closer to being a curmudgeon than you are.:)

I was reading an article about the future of solar power and how the industry is going through a painful consolidation.. One side thinks that the industry got greedy about government subsidies, setting up the pricing structure to pocket the rebate for themselves. Another thought many companies positioned their business to be a "me too" supplier "fed" by government subsidies that never really amounted to much. Another thought that since the Chinese government DOESN'T have to play by capitalist rules they flooded the market with "cheap" product to drive other competitors out of business.

Of course the flip side of that, he pointed out is the Chinese also need to learn that they need a good consumer base in order to be profitable as a big supplier. If you are doing it for profit there's no sense in having a bunch of supply that nobody wants. We MIGHT think of China as "the enemy" but whether we like it or not we are all much more globally connected now than ever in the past..

That's why I wrote that off-the-wall comment you disliked before - financial systems have become another way that people are learning (or not learning) about cooperation vs. competition. Once one "free trade agreement" took hold that was pretty much it..we are going to drag all of the other countries we touch toward SOME sort of equilibrium..whether or not it's actually EQUAL who knows?? I hope that all of those other third world countries don't ALSO try to repeat the same mistakes that America did. Part of the "higher price of oil" is due to other countries now ALSO wanting the big car, etc. Part of it is because greedy commodities traders want to influence public thought to get rich quick instead of providing a useful product in the marketplace. Our planet may not have enough time or resources for every country on Earth to go through the same learning period.

[bigbadmax]

You realize that the $11.7 billion amounts to $14 a person in Africa- about the cost of a pizza in New York?

thats ONTOP of their own economy or lack of, you miss the point....thats quite a few hospitals or other infrastructure needed in the uk, why should africa get it when obviously the money they have so far has been p****d away...its like giving alcohol to an alcoholic...pointless unless you get them to change and after MANY years you gotta try tough love or they will drink you dry.

[void()]

I watched a biography of J.P. Morgan last night. This was in conjunction with watching a biography of Tesla. The biography on Morgan causes me to feel I'll never be clean. One of my grandfathers worked for him indirectly in the steel industry.

The biography of Tesla merely reaffirmed suspicions of him being an eccentric. Rather deal with a dreamer whom could offer the world one source of energy as free as the air we breathe, than some fat cat whom denied us this vision becoming reality. Morgan did not like the idea that, "anybody can build an antennae, stick it in the ground in his backyard and get all the free energy he needed".

While being a bit off, Tesla was correct about the ionosphere. It captures the excess energy from Earth and lies waiting for us to tap. Thank you to Edison too for being a champion of direct current. He too had umbrage over Tesla's system. People in Germany at the time had used Tesla's system and transferred alternating current over 160kms without wires, safely, efficiently. But no, we had to have the wires because Edison deemed alternating current dangerous and Morgan had vested interest in copper.

Tesla demonstrated time and again alternating current was perfectly safe. At one point he touched an electrode that ran alternating current, a lady friend touched the other one, then held hands with Tesla, completing a circuit. Neither one of them were fried crispy, lived well on after the fact. Quite dangerous stuff indeed. If you have no need of copper, then no need of Morgan, no need of debt for energy.

But then, I too am eccentric. Run far away from me, not good to listen to the mad.

[darkeyes]

thats ONTOP of their own economy or lack of, you miss the point....thats quite a few hospitals or other infrastructure needed in the uk, why should africa get it when obviously the money they have so far has been p****d away...its like giving alcohol to an alcoholic...pointless unless you get them to change and after MANY years you gotta try tough love or they will drink you dry.

O Max.. ya r such a scrooge.. the underdeveloped world cant win can they? We give them aid an in time they do advance and quite a long way... imperfectly sure.. some even economically an technologically zoom a long way ahead of us.. India and much of Asia, South an central America.. an Africa will in time an all... hope when the west is down on its uppers an the rest of the world is nice an dandy an we need aid 2 keep body an soul togetha they not as bloody miserable and stingy as u wud like us 2 b.. however down on our luck we r now.. however big a mess our economy is in.. we r still streets ahead of the the underdeveloped world... maybe if the revenue had collected that 25 bill from big biz instead of writin it off among other things we wouldnt b in such a bloody mess.. an we can an still should offer our help 2 them that need it most.. it isnt the 3rd world that is drinkin us dry Max babes... not by a long shot.. we should look much closer to home...

I sometimes wonder if giving aid is grudged cos peeps think it doesnt help.. or because it does and peeps r scared of wot it will mean.. :)