Bisexuals and Labels

[NapalmNick]

Hi. I registered here not too long ago, and didn't really think of anything substantial to post. Well, recently I've been having a few thoughts that directly relate to the subject matter of this site so I'm deciding to give it a go.

I've been thinking a lot lately about the different labels people give themselves and others, and the value systems that come with all of that. I guess it's a trend that's been in the works for the past 40 years or so, but quite a few folks don't like labels, and think that labeling or judging a person is synonymous with unfair discrimination (discrimination in and of itself does not have to have negative connotations); I do not hold this view. I judge people, some in a negative light, others positively. I also label others and myself based on what I already know about said labels and the people I apply them to. It is useful as it helps with internal compartmentalization and overall critical thinking.

The label I choose to give my sexuality is bisexual. To be more specific though, I must admit it gets more complex, and (what the gays and straights love to accuse bisexuals of) confusing. I was having a discussion with a gay male friend, and because I am comfortable with him I didn't have a problem when sexuality came up. After denying the attractiveness of a man he claimed to be very hot, I said that most men aren't even all that attractive to me until they're naked. He thought for a moment, and said it sounded like I was more attracted to male parts than actual men. Without hesitation, I responded "probably". I said this because it IS simply the way I feel.

Now, most of my life, I've been very used to other males being friends and nothing more. A few of these friends ended up in positions where I was sucking their dick, and vice-versa. Pretty spontaneous, but far from "experimentation", insofar as there's no question about whether or not I like cock-- I do.

But with women it's an entirely different story. I've pretty much always been shy around women, and am usually enamored whenever I receive attention from one, especially if she's pretty. I have no trouble at all finding beauty in fully clothed women. Furthermore the idea of a relationship with a woman is a pleasant and completely non-issue idea to me. That is not the case with men, and is probably complicated by my past experiences of it not even occurring to me to take it out of the "friend zone" with them.

If I was to break down my own label it would more or less look like this: bisexual male > mostly straight, if not for all intensive purposes > romantically and physically attracted to women > only physically attracted to men, more specifically (and more often than not only) penis. While this is interesting, I suppose the bottom line is thus: I'm going to do what I want when I want, with whomever I want, and will not feel guilty for doing so.

Now, as for the labels of others, and my relationships with them, I have a few things to say (note the following few paragraphs were written slightly out of sequence and there really wasn't any way of editing them in good continuity, hope it isn't distracting):

Interestingly enough, one of the women I've fallen the hardest for is a lesbian. I have read that men who are attracted to lesbians (and women who are attracted to gay men) often notice the subtle masculinity inherent in such people (or femininity if it is a girl pursuing a gay man) and thus are unkowingly expressing their own latent homosexuality.

In any event, although I have long accepted the fact that if she is to remain tied to her personal label of lesbian that any relationship outside the "friend zone" is impossible, to say I am no longer attracted to her would be a lie. Over the years I have developed a certain fixation with the idea of lesbians who may display bisexual behavior, or who, for all intensive purposes, break the rules of the label "lesbian". Recently I found out that she sometimes watches straight porn, and while I realize that porn is fantasy and also that oftentimes when homosexuals view porn depicting the opposite sex it doesn't "mean" much, it has nonetheless further piqued my curiosity.

Has anyone ever been in a similar situation(s)?

I know that on other internet forums I am not fond of "Dear Abby" type posts, but it is something I think about on and off, and this place seemed the most appropriate. I guess I'm not really looking for advice, but if you feel like you have some, or any other insight, it would not go unappreciated.

[Realist]

I define myself as bisexual and, when anyone is interested enough to ask more, I share specific details of interests, desires, and goals.

Often initial interests are quelled, as more about a person is revealed...or when you think little of an individual, interest can be piqued, when more details of their character and mutual interests reveal themselves. It takes work to ferret out all of the particulars, but if you're relationship-oriented like me, that effort can be rewarding.

You're absolutely right, each of us are different within our area of identification, whether we're straight, bi, or gay. Being bi, in my case, is only the tip of the iceberg.

And yes, I have been infatuated (in love) with lesbians on two occasions...both with different results. With the first, I was in love and had more than one fantasy of turning her (at least) bisexual. We were in the Army and I saw her often, had coffee, and sometimes went to concerts and out to eat together. We even did some drag racing and she beat me in several races, which did nothing to help my self esteem!

We liked each other...I LOVED her. I'm afraid, that although I was in the best shape of my life and not the ugliest animal on the farm, an seldom had trouble getting date.........she was and never would be more than friends.

The second one was a lesbian, who was living with a bisexual girl I was dating. Over a period of two years, with my GF's permission, the one who thought she'd never, EVER, be interested in a guy, became my lover, too. It became the ideal relationship for me, for many reasons, but also one that, if I had remained in, would have probably the death of me! If I could have, I would have separated the two and took the previously gay one with me. That wasn't going to happen, though, the bond was too strong between them.

No matter how virile and in-shape a guy is, I can't visualize one guy keeping two exceptionally sexually oriented ladies happy, forever! If they had not been lovers, themselves, there's no way I could have sated them both on a daily basis!

Ah, to be young young and so unaware of my limits again!

[IanBorthwick]

FYI gay men and lesbian women do not find bisexuals confusing. Most do understand bisexuality even if they are not bisexual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_erasure

S&Gshow, I am getting to the point where I would actually pay you real money to stop spreading this crap around. There is a reason that the term was invented, and that's not to make us suddenly ravening against the G and L community at large. No matter how you slice it, the GL are at LEAST half to blame for the erasure and stereotyping we suffer from and as they are supposed to be our allies and are far less numerous than the Straight community, actually deserve far more of the blame. The rose tinted world you're drawing is not the one we move in and since I came out have been SLAMMED over and over with because I listened to people like yourself. When I told a completely accepting gay friend of mine about this kind of issue, he didn't believe it at first because it was never an issue he had ever thought to look in to. When he did, he was surprised at how pervasive it was among the older and younger generations of gays and lesbians here in Southern California.

Please, take the blinders off and stop telling people up is down, black is white, green is the new pink....it's not going to help. We don't sit here and tell them it's all going to be negative, but you're telling them all their experiences are going to be great and that's not the reality of our community. Better forewarned than to be hit unawares by it, because believe experience, there is nothing like expecting to have a friend treat you like a pariah.

Am I saying all the situations will be like this? No, but those feelings do exist and they simmer beneath the surface like a blister on your foot.

[Kiowa_Pacer]

Greetings;

You know, in all of my life I have never had to have a label slapped on me except Lt., so why is it in the last couple of years people have had to have a certain label put on themselves? Are they That willing to have to have something attached to them that defines their being? Why can they not just be people? Maybe it is just me, but I don't understand why there is this whole encompossing urge to all of a sudden Have to have some kind of sticker, or stencil plastered on their foreheads.

Maybe I'm too old school and not up with the times. :(

Ki

[NapalmNick]

Nick You're thinking way too much about this. This is not going to help you.

Just take your own advice: I'm going to do what I want when I want, with whomever I want, and will not feel guilty for doing so.
To clarify, this isn't something I have ever talked about anywhere else, ever. It is also not something I actually think about often, but when I do I usually have a few interesting tangent-thoughts, and this site seemed to be the most appropriate place to vent some of them. It might not seem like it, but I actually did edit my original post down quite a bit.

As for whether or not it's "eating me up inside": No, it's not.


FYI gay men and lesbian women do not find bisexuals confusing. Most do understand bisexuality even if they are not bisexual.
I won't dispute your term "most" as I am admittedly unaware of exact figures, but there indeed are at least "some" non-bisexual people who like to say that bisexuals are confused. Also I would make a distinction between understand and accept. I have no doubt many gay and straight people have no problem accepting bisexuals, but just like I cannot truly understand what it is to be gay or straight they cannot truly understand what it is to be bi; much the same way any human cannot understand what it is to be a dog.


With the lesbian friend, what's wrong with just being friends with her?

You're correct that she's never going to have sex with you or be a girlfriend.

Don't risk your friendship with her by telling her how you want sex with her or that you wish she was bisexual or straight.
I don't think anything is wrong with us remaining friends. Truth be told, I had already expressed my desires to her three years ago. I am a man of respect for personal boundaries, both emotional and physical, and as soon as I notice someone I care for is uncomfortable I do whatever I can to ease that, even if it means giving them space away from me.

Nonetheless I have two almost-unconscious desires in play: one, the basic human drive of lust, which is almost always triggered when in the presence of another, and two, the more complicated socio-cultural desire of combining lust with courtship rituals. What interests me the most about this is the conscious activity attached to these, which is obsession (psychologically-correct term is fixation). Freud outlined various sexual obsessions, which were all connected to very unambiguous physical things. I'm more interested in the immaterial obsessions, namely to the idea of consciously knowing you cannot have a thing and the fantasies that accompany said knowledge.


You know, in all of my life I have never had to have a label slapped on me except Lt., so why is it in the last couple of years people have had to have a certain label put on themselves? Are they That willing to have to have something attached to them that defines their being? Why can they not just be people? Maybe it is just me, but I don't understand why there is this whole encompossing urge to all of a sudden Have to have some kind of sticker, or stencil plastered on their foreheads.
I see it the completely other way around. I think the idea of rejecting labels is new. Labels are necessary and vital to our communication, natural hierarchies, and relationships. I'm sure not to many people object to labels such as mother, father, brother, spouse, landlord, president, etc.

I'll concede that often people tend to focus on negative labels, but even those can have their uses.

Why can't we just be people? Because "person" doesn't really describe much. Normally people are in fact an entire system of labels. For example, let's make up a person: Jenny. Her name in and of itself is a label. Jenny is also a girl. Label number two. Jenny is a waitress, number three. See where this is going?

What you're most likely thinking of is when a few gals who dislike Jenny call her a "dyke" or something like that.

[sammie19]

Greetings;

You know, in all of my life I have never had to have a label slapped on me except Lt., so why is it in the last couple of years people have had to have a certain label put on themselves? Are they That willing to have to have something attached to them that defines their being? Why can they not just be people? Maybe it is just me, but I don't understand why there is this whole encompossing urge to all of a sudden Have to have some kind of sticker, or stencil plastered on their foreheads.

Maybe I'm too old school and not up with the times. :(

Ki

I'm always confused by those who don't like labels. They are only an ID tag of sorts after all as a loose description of what we are. If we didn't have the label 'bisexual' how do we let the world know of our existence? And how would this site operate if there were no labels?

It isn't that labels define us, only how we identify as one kind of person within a much larger community, in much the same way as I identify as Northumbrian. But the label does not define me or tell my story. It only very vaguely tells the world something about me.

[NEPHX]

Recently I found out that she sometimes watches straight porn, and while I realize that porn is fantasy and also that oftentimes when homosexuals view porn depicting the opposite sex it doesn't "mean" much, it has nonetheless further piqued my curiosity.


You certainly did give some thought to all of this. I related to a number of areas including the discussion of attractions to the masculinity of females (I also am attracted tom boyish women as well as androgynous bodied men but also an array of other types. One thing I noted with myself is that over time I evolved to romantic/emotional attraction pretty quickly. Still, I enjoy straight porn more with an eye on the guy as much as the girl. Maybe, for me, its because their seems to be often more passion and emotion in the male-female porn I like often missing in male-male porn.

One thing that jumped out at me was that while you give it all a lot of though I wondered if you have read any research or acclaimed books on the topic of Human Sexuality or Bisexuality. It would appear to me that you have not. Perhaps, rather than trying to "go it alone", "reinvent the wheel", (add additional cliches), seek out some books on the topics by well know academic researchers.

Books that jump to mind are:

The Bisexual Option(2nd Ed) (Klein)
Getting Bi, Voices of Bisexuals Around the World (Ochs/Rowley),
Bi Any Other Name (Hutchins/Kaahumanu)
Bi America Myths, Truths, and Struggles of an Invisible Community


.... as just a few examples. There are many. many more (maybe check biresource.net)

While the Internet is a vast resource, the information provided in forums is not necessarily based on much else than the untrained person writing it. This comes to light time and again in this forum. While it certainly has its own value on how individuals feel and live, etc., reading highly regarded materials on the topic is a very valuable exercise.

Not to diminish the value of this or any discussion forum, more often than not, you're likely getting "advice" or at least input from people that have not done substantial research. In general, academic research is more substantial as a start or at least in addition. The authors, especially in the well regarded books on the topic of bisexuality, offer substantial academic backgrounds on the topic of human sexuality, psychology, etc.

Its actually somewhat fascinating watching some of the authors evolve their own definitions and positions over time with each new book (such as Robyn Och's definition of bisexuality over the years). I've noted it in a few of my posts in the past.

An other example, you mention porn as a fantasy. Klein, in his Klien Sexual Orientation Grid (KSOG)(The Bisexual Option 2nd ed), discusses seven(7) variables in three (3) time periods in viewing ones sexuality. Fantasy is one of the 7 variables. Each is discussed at length. And, one can be all over the grid as the object of KSOG is not to come up with an answer for "what label one should use" but to understand one's own sexuality and sexuality itself - it is complicated. Klein specifically leaves out gender identity in his KSOG. Interesting, or maybe not so amazing, the word bisexual is no where to be found in the KSOG.

http://www.bisexual.org/kleingrid.html
http://www.kleingridonline.com/

Some of the above books are part, or all, anthologies... offering stories from people who identify, in some way, as bisexual. They are also from diverse lifestyles including "diverse class, race, ability, age, gender identity and language background." (Getting Bi 1st Ed).

I think you'd really enjoy reading a few of these books. Most are available either at major retail, LGBT or online bookstores.

[tenni]

As far as identity labels goes, I think that when a person gives themself a label that is acceptable regardless if another person agrees or not. This is particularly important for identity questions.

When a person gives another person the label, that is something quite different. If asked by a person how they perceive you, that is another possibility of labelling and quite different from a person labelling another person without an invitation to give their perception.

[NapalmNick]

Thank you NEPHX for the book suggestions. At the moment I'm in a bit of a hurry, but I will definitely check those out today and also give a more proper response.

[NapalmNick]

You certainly did give some thought to all of this. I related to a number of areas including the discussion of attractions to the masculinity of females (I also am attracted tom boyish women as well as androgynous bodied men but also an array of other types. One thing I noted with myself is that over time I evolved to romantic/emotional attraction pretty quickly. Still, I enjoy straight porn more with an eye on the guy as much as the girl. Maybe, for me, its because their seems to be often more passion and emotion in the male-female porn I like often missing in male-male porn.
Actually, the woman in question, while lesbian, is a typical "girly girl". She might have some masculine qualities, but if she does they are very subtle.

As for porn, I usually prefer straight porn, but some of the MMF bi porn is OK. I really don't get anything out of lesbian porn, and am confounded by straight men who think it's the hottest shit ever. I don't have a pussy, so for me there's not way to relate to the images in such porn.


One thing that jumped out at me was that while you give it all a lot of though I wondered if you have read any research or acclaimed books on the topic of Human Sexuality or Bisexuality.
Research, yes, books, no. Even when I was in my early teens I'd often read encyclodaepic articles on sexuality (both in print and online) and I'd say I know the basics fairly well. Furthermore while I'm certainly not qaulified in the area I am more or less familiar with sexual psychology, namely the traditions started by Sigmund Freud.

I think the most impressive thing concerning the whole straight/bi/gay thing I've ever read was Camille Paglia's assertion that human sexuality is a continuum.

I would say I do not know much about any of the sociological implications of sex.

I'm always willing to learn, but my main aversion to reading books on sexuality (specifically bisexuality) is that I know myself pretty well, and would rather judge real people by their real actions than speculative word smithing. I of course could be way off base, and regardless of whether or not I'd agree with the contents of a book actually knowing what they are is never bad.


While the Internet is a vast resource, the information provided in forums is not necessarily based on much else than the untrained person writing it.
Oh, I'm well aware of this. I wasn't looking for authoritative knowledge, or even real advice, just the personal thoughts of some people who might be able to relate.

Something that just occurred to me, that I'm wondering why I didn't post earlier, is actually a very simple query: Here on this forum I had read a thread about someone inquiring if there were any men who had considered themselves gay and then bisexual. Is there a similar trend among some lesbian women? What events if any would lead such a woman to change the self-perception of her sexuality?

[DuckiesDarling]

I've been around this site for awhile and I can tell you, NapalmNick, that a lot of people don't like labels. They don't like them assigned to them by others, they don't like trying to reduce themself to one word. There was even a post recently on this site and had a link to a column, on that column it was implied by one of the people that pansexuals identify animals as a sexual partner. Really, if you id as pansexual, do you want to have sex with animals? My partner is pansexual and his answer was blunt "many fuck like rabbits, do it doggie style and are hung like horses but we don't do thumper and bambi"

I am straight. To me that is just something people label me. It's not the sum total of who I am just as people who id as bisexual do not have their bisexuality as the sum total of who they are. It's part of you, not all of you.

So I see the reason people don't like labels. It limits you. It sets an image in other people's minds of how you think, who you are. Now has anyone ever added a label to you or you come up with one for yourself that adequately covers all the myriad aspects of your personality?

[NapalmNick]

It's not the sum total of who I am just as people who id as bisexual do not have their bisexuality as the sum total of who they are. It's part of you, not all of you.

So I see the reason people don't like labels. It limits you. It sets an image in other people's minds of how you think, who you are. Now has anyone ever added a label to you or you come up with one for yourself that adequately covers all the myriad aspects of your personality?
Labels are not meant to define away a person's existence. I'm sure many people can relate to the phrase "at a loss for words"; this happens when you discover either A) a hole in your vocabulary or B) a hole in the language you speak.

So there are actually MANY things that many people have no labels for at all, and won't until they make one up.

I go under many labels, as do most people. One of them is bisexual. Some others are: Male, Hispanic, American, son, nephew, artist, writer, musician, Trekkie, etc.

Some labels that people have given me in the past have offended me, but many I've actually learned to wear with pride, such as: nerd, freak, asshole, etc.

Truth be told, people are always going to have a limited picture of who you are, even the people you are closest to. The only person who can know you completely is you. Most of the time when people use labels they do not even do so verbally; in fact often they assign labels unconsciously. It is not "bad" it is simply a part of how we work as humans.

Just like it is normal to judge people. It used to be that being a judge of character was considered good, now people chant "don't judge me". I see it all as stemming from the cancer of political correctness and the attempts to leave everyone unoffended. People are afraid to be honest, because they're afraid if they actually say what's on their minds it might offend someone.

Interestingly enough, almost every social ritual that requires verbalization (especially romantic relationships) practically depends on you bullshitting the other person! I'm not saying EVERYONE does this, but it is undeniable that it is the vast cultural norm.

In brief, any rejection of labeling in favor of assuaging the sensibilities of others is counterintuitive.

I also realized I could have named this thread something better.

[DuckiesDarling]

I go under many labels, as do most people. One of them is bisexual. Some others are: Male, Hispanic, American, son, nephew, artist, writer, musician, Trekkie, etc.

You just proved my point for me that your bisexuality is not the sum total of who you are.

[NapalmNick]

You just proved my point for me that your bisexuality is not the sum total of who you are.
Never claimed it was. In fact, I think it's quite clear in all my posts that I never asserted labels were meant to define the sum of an individual's (or group for that matter) identity.

[TaylorMade]

Mine is Machine Washable. :p

*Taylor*

[Gay2Bi]

Something that just occurred to me, that I'm wondering why I didn't post earlier, is actually a very simple query: Here on this forum I had read a thread about someone inquiring if there were any men who had considered themselves gay and then bisexual. Is there a similar trend among some lesbian women? What events if any would lead such a woman to change the self-perception of her sexuality?

Hi, Nick,

Well, I can't speak for women, but as my screenname suggests, I am one of the guys who had considered himself gay but now bi. And I struggle with how or even if to label myself, so I understand what you mean about the issue.

For me, I'm emotionially and romantically attracted to men; I always have been, and unless something changes radically, always will be. Within the last few years (okay, it's about 8 now), I've found myself attracted to the idea of sex with a woman, but I still don't have any emotional interest beyond friendship (with benefits). It was confusing as hell when I first started thinking about it ("What? A girl? But I'm gay!"), but now that I've had time to process that, I'm more comfortable with the idea, but no less clear on my sexuality.

So, am I really bi? Well, yes and no, I guess. ;) Yes, because the idea of sex with a woman turns me on, but no because men are the primary objects of my attraction - sexually, emotionally, romantically. Unfortunately, our languague is missing words to describe that precise combination, so I'm faced with a choice between two unsatisfying labels: gay (which I don't feel is honest because it implies a lack of interest in women) and bi (which I don't feel is honest since my attraction is very lopsided). But I now mainly use bi since it does allow for both my strong attraction to men and my sexual interest in women - even if it doesn't really capture the exact flavor of my sexuality.

As for porn, I love gay and straight (but not the lesbian scenes; there needs to be a penis in there somewhere!) and some bi, although most bi porn to me is a disappointment because either the guys don't seem really interested in the girl or they seem too interested in the girl and not each other.

[IanBorthwick]

Ian don't be so negative.

Just because you have experienced some biphobia from a few gay men and lesbian women this does not mean that all or most gay men and lesbian women are against bisexuals, or that Gays and lesbians are not our allies and friends in the GLBT and queer community.

I've been out as bisexual for decades since the mid 70s.

I have yet to experience any biphobia or bisexual "erasure" from any gay men or lesbian women.

I've lived in various places besides the west coast and I was accepted as bisexual by gay men and lesbian women even if I was in a small town in the midwest in the cornbelt, or in the south.

Gay men and lesbians of all ages even older and younger ones do understand bisexuality and have been completely accepting of myself and other bisexuals.

I'm not lying to people or spreading any crap around.

I live life in reality not in a world of theory like you do.

When I meet gay men and lesbian women and come out to them I have a chip on my shoulder like you do and think that they're going to reject me, claim that I'm not bisexual, and invalidate my sexuality. I have never ever had any of this happen with any of the many gay men and lesbians I've met, talked to, came out to, and became friends and acquaintances with.

What you've described as biphobia and bisexual erasure is not common and you're showing bisexuals a negative viewpoint of gay men and lesbians.

I'm writing about the reality of the GLBT community. It is your choice to pretend and spread lies that most gay men and lesbian women are not accepting of bisexuals and do not understand bisexuality. None of this is true.

Gay men, lesbian women, and even straight people do understand bisexuality, accept us bisexuals as having a valid sexuality, and they are our allies and friends. Bisexuals are not seen as pariahs or as not being there as a real sexuality by gay men or lesbian women.

Ok, S&G show, you are good at putting words in someone's mouth, but here are three things you did wrong.

One: Put words in my mouth.
Two: You tell me I live in theory, rather than the real world. Allow me to explain to you the world is real, where I grew up was a daily fight, and your rose tinting of the world is akin to blindness. Good for you, ignorance is bliss.
Three: You put me down as if I do not have as much data as you do on the subject, but fact is I go into the world open and honest and see it for what it is. What you're describing is Fantasyland and you can live there as long as you like. The fact are there, and I do not paint the whole community badly, I just know how to tell the difference between crap and crisco.

It's part of society, in fact they put it into Favorably GL movies and such on LOGO channel. it's accepted to make us scapegoats and bash bisexuals, our portrayals less than stellar just to say the very least. if you don't see it, I have only one thing I can tell you:

There are none so blind...

There are books, and experts, and journalists...but you know better than all of them because your life is more valid. Congrats.

[NapalmNick]

Hi, Nick,

Well, I can't speak for women, but as my screenname suggests, I am one of the guys who had considered himself gay but now bi. And I struggle with how or even if to label myself, so I understand what you mean about the issue.

For me, I'm emotionially and romantically attracted to men; I always have been, and unless something changes radically, always will be. Within the last few years (okay, it's about 8 now), I've found myself attracted to the idea of sex with a woman, but I still don't have any emotional interest beyond friendship (with benefits). It was confusing as hell when I first started thinking about it ("What? A girl? But I'm gay!"), but now that I've had time to process that, I'm more comfortable with the idea, but no less clear on my sexuality.

So, am I really bi? Well, yes and no, I guess. ;) Yes, because the idea of sex with a woman turns me on, but no because men are the primary objects of my attraction - sexually, emotionally, romantically. Unfortunately, our languague is missing words to describe that precise combination, so I'm faced with a choice between two unsatisfying labels: gay (which I don't feel is honest because it implies a lack of interest in women) and bi (which I don't feel is honest since my attraction is very lopsided). But I now mainly use bi since it does allow for both my strong attraction to men and my sexual interest in women - even if it doesn't really capture the exact flavor of my sexuality.

As for porn, I love gay and straight (but not the lesbian scenes; there needs to be a penis in there somewhere!) and some bi, although most bi porn to me is a disappointment because either the guys don't seem really interested in the girl or they seem too interested in the girl and not each other.
Hi there. I'd say I'm pretty much the opposite, prefer women over men, and don't like the idea of a romantic relationship with men. I think the term bisexual fits because it refers specifically to sex. Now, if someone asked me if I was biromantic I'd have to say no. Now, my perceptions might change over time, and in that case I would have problem with it. I mean, if one day I decide to have a romantic relationship with a man, I simply will, because that's what I want. This is where I think Camille Paglia was spot-on in her "continuum" theory.

I do realize that often detractors of lesbianism will insert the "trauma" theory into trying to rationalize any given woman's sole preference for other women. Basically, saying that the only reason she isn't interested in men is because of negative past experiences with them. I highly doubt this is the case for most lesbians, but I can't help but wonder if it might indeed be the case with my friend.

[NEPHX]

... I think the term bisexual fits because it refers specifically to sex....

That is one of the issues with the word itself. Gay, Lesbian, queer, transgender, none of these has the word SEX in them. You would be amazed at what studies have shown because of that particular point.

As I'm sure many members will tell you later today, and, as for me... bisexuality is more than just about sex to me. And, everyone is certainly allowed to have their own definition and how it works for them, what they are attracted to, etc. And, I also think we evolve...


Wiki: "In 1995, Harvard Shakespeare professor Marjorie Garber made the academic case for bisexuality with her 600 page, Vice Versa: Bisexuality and the Eroticism of Everyday Life in which she argued that most people would be bisexual if not for "repression, religion, repugnance, denial, laziness, shyness, lack of opportunity, premature specialization, a failure of imagination, or a life already full to the brim with erotic experiences, albeit with only one person, or only one gender."

Now, that's a mouthful of good stuff.

Seriously check out the KSOG. It's an easy read and you don't have to buy the book ;-)

The term bisexual is defined by many academics/researchers. Usually it revolves around terms such as: "potential to be romantically and/or sexually attracted to more than one sex in various degrees at various times." The key word is "potential" and that it can vary or its fluidity. And, we don't HAVE to DO anything to define ourselves.

My favorite definition is: By Robyn Ochs (Getting Bi 1st ed.) page 8. Notice that she uses what is referred to as "I-speak" or the first person.


"Every new idea I grappled with changed my definition of bisexuality. I have a new working definition:


I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge in myself the potential to be attracted, romantically and/or sexually, to people of more than one sex, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily in the same degree.

I expect that this definition will change yet again, as I continue to learn.

[Long Duck Dong]

That is one of the issues with the word itself. Gay, Lesbian, queer, transgender, none of these has the word SEX in them. You would be amazed at what studies have shown because of that particular point.


gay is a word used by homosexuals
lesbian is a world used by female homosexuals
and transgender is a identity, not a sexuality....

thats the trouble with a lot of studies..... they use wording that can be incorrect......

[NEPHX]

gay is a word used by homosexuals
lesbian is a world used by female homosexuals
and transgender is a identity, not a sexuality....

thats the trouble with a lot of studies..... they use wording that can be incorrect......

And, so can yours words or misinterpretations of mine.

I did not say Transgender a sexual orientation and am very well aware of that fact. I used it as an example of a label. Although your point is more than sometimes true, its just not this case or the point of my post. I didn't feel a lecture on gender identity vs. sexual orientation was needed or appropriate to make my point.

Best you not read into my post with your own biases on the topic of gender identity. You have a tad of a trigger finger on the topic from my observations and, maybe, generally speaking, perhaps rightly so. I have my own buttons on certain topics as many will attest too:bigrin:.

You diminish the point of my post with your injection of this point. Mine is a point about labels... It was an example about LABELS. referring to at least MY community at large.

BTW, Gay is not used just by male homosexuals... I know many, many women who use the term - including one of my sibling not to mention society and the media (correctly or otherwise). Don't forget, there is a whole other world outside of your arena. And, the terms you quote are used by and about each type by society at large. Labels Labels Labels. Some men call themselves Lesbians if they are handy and like sports.... go figure.

In the USA these labels often define our community and are most often grouped all together as in LGBT (and sometimes LGBTQIS - for Queer/Questioning, Intersex, Straight-Allies). Are they related.... some say maybe others say not so much. I've had many a bi support group meetings where I've been the ONLY bi person. We're historically very close with the Transgender communities/group(s) as many identify as bisexual and the bi community is the most allied and supportive of the transgender community here at least.

I'm well aware of transgender is not a sexuality (you/I have been around long to know my posts). While no expert, I've quite familiar. Here, it is, in fact referenced as a LABEL, which just happens to also lump all trans-xxxx's including intersex/hermaphrodites into one category for reference purposes at least.

So shall we have each trans specific group tongue-lash each post and define their specific definition?

[bisexual Bill]

And, so can yours words or misinterpretations of mine.

I did not say Transgender a sexual orientation and am very well aware of that fact. I used it as an example of a label. Although your point is more than sometimes true, its just not this case or the point of my post. I didn't feel a lecture on gender identity vs. sexual orientation was needed or appropriate to make my point.

Best you not read into my post with your own biases on the topic of gender identity. You have a tad of a trigger finger on the topic from my observations and, maybe, generally speaking, perhaps rightly so. I have my own buttons on certain topics as many will attest too:bigrin:.

You diminish the point of my post with your injection of this point. Mine is a point about labels... It was an example about LABELS. referring to at least MY community at large.

BTW, Gay is not used just by male homosexuals... I know many, many women who use the term - including one of my sibling not to mention society and the media (correctly or otherwise). Don't forget, there is a whole other world outside of your arena. And, the terms you quote are used by and about each type by society at large. Labels Labels Labels. Some men call themselves Lesbians if they are handy and like sports.... go figure.

In the USA these labels often define our community and are most often grouped all together as in LGBT (and sometimes LGBTQIS - for Queer/Questioning, Intersex, Straight-Allies). Are they related.... some say maybe others say not so much. I've had many a bi support group meetings where I've been the ONLY bi person. We're historically very close with the Transgender communities/group(s) as many identify as bisexual and the bi community is the most allied and supportive of the transgender community here at least.

I'm well aware of transgender is not a sexuality (you/I have been around long to know my posts). While no expert, I've quite familiar. Here, it is, in fact referenced as a LABEL, which just happens to also lump all trans-xxxx's including intersex/hermaphrodites into one category for reference purposes at least.

So shall we have each trans specific group tongue-lash each post and define their specific definition?

These are more examples of how labels are pretty useless.

Lesbians are not "gay" as "gay" refers to gay/homosexual men only like long duck wrote.

Straight guys who call themselves "lesbian" because they fall into bad dyke stereotypes are clearly not lesbian or dykes.

If you look at GLBT/queer history bisexuality is most closely linked to the gay male community and gay liberation. Bisexuality not linked with being Trans even if people want to claim that it is or rewrite history and now claim that the two are linked and always have been in the past.

[NEPHX]

These are more examples of how labels are pretty useless.

Lesbians are not "gay" as "gay" refers to gay/homosexual men only like long duck wrote.

Straight guys who call themselves "lesbian" because they fall into bad dyke stereotypes are clearly not lesbian or dykes.

If you look at GLBT/queer history bisexuality is most closely linked to the gay male community and gay liberation. Bisexuality not linked with being Trans even if people want to claim that it is or rewrite history and now claim that the two are linked and always have been in the past.

Well bill.. Women are gay if they say they are gay. Why don't you go tell them otherwise. I'll watch :bigrin: We even let you call yourself bill when clearly there is an array of labels perhaps more fitting. ;)

Read what I said within the context of the paragraph. I didn't say they were linked (it was a point in passing).. I said specifically our group here (even had it in bold) that I am involved with have been historically close. But, in general they are very linked (there now I said it). In addition, many trans people do in fact identify as bisexual with estimates I've seen as high as 80% or more (from studies as well as from the trans groups own data).

One will more often find bisexual conferences are referred to as ... "Conference on Bisexuality and Gender Identity" and/or have very strong transgender components/sessions available. Here is a current example(BECAUSE): http://main.bisexual.com/forum/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=248

Linked to the gay community... oh goodness we should be but bisexual community is historically marginalized and not included. We have our own movement. We must, more often than not, include ourselves whenever and where ever possible. Often shunned like the trans community; peas in a pod.

If you don't like labels, don't use them. But, they are handy for some of us to give others a general idea of something. I prefer "bi" which leaves out the word "sexual" and is less loaded than Bisexual to me.

Don't worry, you can't be transgender or a fem by association.

Funny you read into that I was referring to "straight" men when I mentioned men that call themselves lesbians. I didn't distinguish between orientations.

People are what and who they say they are and don't have to clear it with you or LDD or anyone else (I know, very hard to believe yes? :tong: ). Since we've had this debate before, lets just agree to disagree. Even though the entire academic arena involving human sexuality and sexual orientation/gender identity studies say the above but we'll let you dictate your label theory on everyone and take everyone's freedom of choice further marginalizing them. Maybe you'd like to insist people tattoo their approved bill-appointed orientations on their forehead after you choose it for them??? Then, maybe sort them out?? Ya, well, see how slippery the slope gets..... Remember where pink triangles came from. And, the Earth is flat if you say it enough times to enough people and demand it.

[bisexual Bill]

Well bill.. Women are gay if they say they are gay.

Sexologists sometimes have trouble distinguishing real lesbians from women who are bisexual or even hetero and call themselves lesbian as a feminist label. I'm sure they have trouble with hetero women who think that they're bisexual just because they make out with men for the show of it.


Linked to the gay community... oh goodness we should be but bisexual community is historically marginalized and not included. We have our own movement. We must, more often than not, include ourselves whenever and where ever possible. Often shunned like the trans community; peas in a pod.


People are what and who they say they are and don't have to clear it with you or LDD or anyone else (I know, very hard to believe yes? :tong: ).

This is more re-writing of GLB/queer history.

Bisexuals have always been linked with gay men and lesbians since before Stonewall, after Stonewall, and we're going to be forever linked with gays and lesbians.

If you and other bisexuals want to pretend that we've been historically marginalized by gay men and lesbians and that we have more in common with Trans people somehow you can do this but you're just re-writing history to suit your own agendas.

I've been out as bisexual since the 70s. I've never ever been marginalized by Gay men or dykes. I have nothing in common with Trans people besides being human since I've never had gender issues and I don't cross dress.

Myself and other bisexuals who have been out since the 70s and before that decade are living proof that bisexuals and the bisexual community are not marginalized by gays and lesbians and that we're more connected to gay men and lesbians than to trans people.

That's not necessarily true that people are what sexual orientation they say they are.

There are gay men who claim that they are bisexual but they're not bisexual at all and are really just gay/homosexual men since they're not attracted to women at all. Just look at when Elton John and Boy George claimed that they were fake bisexuals but they're really gay men.

Or there are bisexual and gay men who stay closeted and marry women and claim that they are "straight" when they're not heterosexual or straight at all.

I'm sure you'd claim the Hetero women who make out with other women when drunk and for a man's attention who say that they're bisexual but are not attracted to women at all are somehow really bisexual. ;) There are even women who identify as "lesbian" yet they wind up marrying men and having an active sex life with only a man for the rest of their lives. These women are clearly not lesbian or homosexual at all.

[NEPHX]

I'm sure you'd claim the Hetero women who make out with other women when drunk and for a man's attention who say that they're bisexual but are not attracted to women at all are somehow really bisexual. ;) .....

Bill, really ..seriously, what part of this point that I have been trying to make for you, conceptually, is not clear? So, once more:

"People ARE WHAT THEY CLAIM THEY ARE WHEN THEY CLAIM IT."

Which allows them to change it when they want :eek:

What I "think they are" is of no consequence in my opinion.

Besides, how would you or I know if it was "for a man's attention" or because after a drink or too to allow their inhibitions to drop a bit they found "the other women is so dang hot and has awesome lips?" :three:

[sammie19]

Bill, really ..seriously, what part of this point that I have been trying to make for you, conceptually, is not clear? So, once more:

"People ARE WHAT THEY CLAIM THEY ARE WHEN THEY CLAIM IT."



I have never believed that but was persuaded by a good friend that we while we are often what we believe ourselves to be, at least as often we deny to ourselves and the world what we are.

[bisexual Bill]

Bill, really ..seriously, what part of this point that I have been trying to make for you, conceptually, is not clear? So, once more:

"People ARE WHAT THEY CLAIM THEY ARE WHEN THEY CLAIM IT."

Besides, how would you or I know if it was "for a man's attention" or because after a drink or too to allow their inhibitions to drop a bit they found "the other women is so dang hot and has awesome lips?" :three:

Human sexuality does not work that way.

The idea that someone is whatever sexuality they want to be at the time, when they claim it doesn't make any sense.

If it were true all of the people who claim that they are "straight" when they are gay, bisexual, or lesbian really would really be straight or heterosexual.

I know women who are completely hetero and they have kissed or made out with a woman in front of a man who they wanted to impress.

If you haven't seen fake bisexual women I take it you haven't been around many straight men who love to see two women kiss or been to straight dance clubs where this sort of thing goes on and is encouraged. Have you seen straight porn in the last 30 years? There are tons of scenes in straight porn about women doing this.

[NEPHX]

You really don't grasp the whole concept of self-identification here do you.

We're talking human sexuality, sexology, research, etc. and NOT human sexuality according to Bill. You're demanding that everyone conform to your standards and labels.

Try reading some basic books.. Kinsey Reports (you can even rent the movie Kinsey), or any book on human sexuality and you will find this same idea of defining one's sexuality. Except I guess the Book of Bill.

Saying you've seen some drunk women kissing for their guys isn't exactly a good example. They may be straight, they may be not straight... (I can't tell which you think they are at this point). Try some actual noted published papers or books... if you're going to discuss the technical nuances of human sexuality at all.

"If it were true all of the people who claim that they are "straight" when they are gay, bisexual, or lesbian really would really be straight or heterosexual." oh my....does that keep you awake at night?

Search on "Men who have sex with men" or msm (Wiki will do) but they identify as straight. It is considered a class of its own. So be it. Are you their mom now? You're going to demand that they take your label and use it?


Men who have sex with men (abbreviated as MSM, also known as males who have sex with males) are male persons who engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex, regardless of how they identify themselves; many men choose not to accept social identities of gay or bisexual.[1][2][3][4][5] The term was created in the 1990s by epidemiologists in order to study the spread of disease among men who have sex with men, regardless of identity.[2]

MSM is often used in medical literature and social research to describe such men as a group for research studies without considering issues of self-identification.



Human sexuality does not work that way.

The idea that someone is whatever sexuality they want to be at the time, when they claim it doesn't make any sense.

If it were true all of the people who claim that they are "straight" when they are gay, bisexual, or lesbian really would really be straight or heterosexual.

I know women who are completely hetero and they have kissed or made out with a woman in front of a man who they wanted to impress.

If you haven't seen fake bisexual women I take it you haven't been around many straight men who love to see two women kiss or been to straight dance clubs where this sort of thing goes on and is encouraged. Have you seen straight porn in the last 30 years? There are tons of scenes in straight porn about women doing this.

[bisexual Bill]

You really don't grasp the whole concept of self-identification here do you.

We're talking human sexuality, sexology, research, etc. and NOT human sexuality according to Bill. You're demanding that everyone conform to your standards and labels.

Try reading some basic books.. Kinsey Reports (you can even rent the movie Kinsey), or any book on human sexuality and you will find this same idea of defining one's sexuality. Except I guess the Book of Bill.

Saying you've seen some drunk women kissing for their guys isn't exactly a good example. They may be straight, they may be not straight... (I can't tell which you think they are at this point). Try some actual noted published papers or books... if you're going to discuss the technical nuances of human sexuality at all.

"If it were true all of the people who claim that they are "straight" when they are gay, bisexual, or lesbian really would really be straight or heterosexual." oh my....does that keep you awake at night?

Search on "Men who have sex with men" or msm (Wiki will do) but they identify as straight. It is considered a class of its own. So be it. Are you their mom now? You're going to demand that they take your label and use it?

I've actually studied human sexuality and read the actual Kinsey reports.

The Kinsey reports do not talk about concepts like someone being closeted or in denial about their sexuality.

MSM or "Men who have sex with men" is nothing but another term that de-queers and debases bisexual and gay men.

These men are not heterosexual at all. They're just closeted gay and bisexual men who identify as "straight". It does not mean that these men really are heterosexual or straight since if they were they wouldn't be sexually attracted to men or having sex with men like they do.

No your theory about human sexuality does not keep me up at night.

I just think it's rather silly that you think that whatever sexuality someone self identifies with at any given time, is their true sexuality when that is not always the case.

It's not this way for bisexuals, gay men, or lesbians who identify as "straight" or "hetero" and try to force themselves to be heterosexual or straight.

People who are not heterosexual are never going to be or somehow become heterosexual no matter how many times they have sex with the opposite gender or even if they marry the opposite gender and never have sex with the same gender.